Holy moly… another flamewar and another GBCW

it seems to me we run around talking about saving the world and can barely save ourselves.

hey Robyn, how many times have you been here? you were contemplating leaving and/or stopping writing just days ago, feeling ineffectual. i hear this from you often. people don’t read your stuff. they don’t listen to you.

weill, i am leaving. but not because of any one person. and it’s not because i’m misunderstood or nobody listens to me.

i’m am tired of the whining. not yours. but the whole fucking thing. i’m tired of sacred cows, whether it’s using a word or saying Bill Clinton fucked us. i’m tired of transgender, black, white, progressive, hispanic, women, fuck fuck fuck… when do we get back to just being human beings? instead of targets and victims and winners and losers and progressives who don’t realize they marginalize others be labeling them as haters…

i’m tired of hurt feelings. and absolutes. it’s not about you. or me. there are far more serious problems to solve. but for sure, we are kidding ourselves if this is as good as we get. distorting each other’s feelings, facts, intentions.

i am tired of being a progressive. and yet, i realize i’ve never thoroughly mourned the loss of my democratic self. i am tired of politics. i am tired of people pretending they want the truth. “we can challenge each other.” i might just vomit… nobody really wants to hear truth. i think sometimes agreement disguises itself as truth. the truth is there is nothing absolute about it… it breaks like light into colors of all kinds through 6.7 billion different prisms.

i’m tired of talking. writing. thinking about George W. Bush.  i am tired of nancy pelosi and botox. i’m tired of lies. i hope Obama is the second coming of christ and that i don’t feel compelled to write another political thought.

i’ve been on the verge of this for a while. and this, this was one one too many for me. i think what happened here was wrong. yes. i do.

and yes, this is about you Robyn. hear this from a fan of your writing: you lose me when you start the pity party. who gives a fuck how many people read you? there are people who do. write to them. not to those who aren’t there. i know i got into a “why don’t you give a pony” with NL. but it was never about how many ponies… you’ll just have to take my word on that.

as a reader of yours, i always end up feeling cheated when you go down the “i’m misunderstood road” and i say, fuck. don’t squander your power with this shit. you’ve got power Robyn. you blow me away. but then you go and give it away. you have the makings of blockbuster. get out of your own way.

whether you stay here or you go somewhere else. listen to what scribe said. that was a spot-on comment.

it’s time. change the game Robyn. you’ve already changed the rules and the board. you, having been man, woman, father and wondering how to approach those things with your daughter now can go for it…  on so many levels.

so just fucking do it. i am sorry, but i do expect more of you… i hope you take it this as it’s meant. it’s a compliment AND a kick in the ass.


a last thought… everybody has a story to tell… that’s the beauty of it.

and hey… here’s a project we progressives might be able to conquer:


i’ll be around for a while today and then i’m outta here…  


Skip to comment form

    • pfiore8 on June 30, 2008 at 16:30


    and buhdy. you drive me stark raving mad. but for some reason, i love you madly. thanks for the platform.

    we do have some shit to work out from these last few days.

    i expect we’ll get there some day…

    • brobin on June 30, 2008 at 16:57

    I just wish your heart would take a little more time to come to the decision that you have.

    When everyone walks the fine line in lockstep, there is no diversity and when there is no diversity everything becomes stale.  As I stated in a comment yesterday,

    Coming to grips with the fact that we as individuals have a lot of information to pass on to the group is what we need to continue here.

    Sometimes, that involves being peacemaker.  Other times it involves stirring things up on purpose.

    Understanding when to go from one to the other and just having fun and enjoying the experience and insight we get in between is the hard part.

    Letting go isn’t easy.  Taking the time to understand ideals beyond an individual’s current mindset isn’t easy.

    Keeping an open mind and actually listening to other points of view obviously isn’t easy.  Yet, how else do we move forward?

    I will miss your point of view if you truly finalize your decision to not return here.  I will miss it very much.

  1. hockey. Hmmmmm…..

    If I ever achieve enlightened humanity I will let you know.

  2. sigh.

    I will deeply miss all the folks who have left over this. I hope they continue to fight the good fight elsewhere. We need every fighter we can get. ESPECIALLY when things get hard and messy…as they are about to do all over.

    Just to make it official…I don’t want ANYBODY to leave, and when things calm down….and with everybody leaving they sorta have to, right? …I hope y’all come back.

  3. I have been meaning to say for a while that I’ve been impressed by what you’ve had to say. More than once you’ve made a remark that had me sitting up and taking notice, because it would be outside of the sleepy mainstream. For all their self-congratulation, the blogs are a hotbed of social rest. There really have to be challengers to the status quo, ya know? And if you need something even more stupid than what has gone on these last few years, just wait a day. The deceit and capitulation are never-ending, and it’s my hunch we will start to see the public reaction this year.

    Spats come and go. We are in the middle of interesting times, unfortunately, and the evil isn’t going to go away on its own.

    It’s up to you and me to make history, or else it’s left to the assholes.

    Just sayin I think you ought to stay.

    • scribe on June 30, 2008 at 17:56

    The comment of mine you referred to here was this one:

    “It’s time to change the pattern. The old one has served it’s purpose well and is no longer needed. Let go of the leaving: it is futile to keep searching for what has already been found.”

    I did write it (intuitively) in response to Robyn, but even as I was writing it down,  I knew it wasn’t JUST for her and more I think about it, the surer I am that it’s intended for all of us, me included, and perhaps even for all the ways we’ve all been operating on every level, from the personal to the global. And another intuitive thought just flew in and tells me it has something to do with “projection”.

    How tempted we ALL are to look for the source causes of our internal pain, chaos, confusion, rage….outside of ourselves. Something, someone, outside of ourselves that  we can see and name and blame, because thats the only way we know or were ever taught and it the only way we know how to survive that kind of “fire within”..when it burn this hot.

    I sense an absolutely incredible level of frustration and yes, even rage in your diary, and it resonates, because believe I’ve been right where you appear to be now so many times.

    And under all of that, I sense an overwhelming sense of powerlessness to change anything..that comes from a place even deeper, that doesn’t even exist at all in many people: a soul-deep need to be some part of SAVING this sorry-assed old world, and intense fear that it can’t BE saved.   (sheeshus..I guess it’s my say for walking out on really slender limbs!)

    The intensity of PASSION that you, Robyn, NL and the others are emanating here can’t be explained any other way that I can think of. Together you’ve dared breach topics so loaded, so difficult for us as mere humans to face, it’s set off a series of trigger points in everyone, like a string of firecrackers, all blowing at once! Damned scary stuff, and everyone is trying to figure out how to survive it.

    If there is a god/guide/force/flow/whatever the hell you wanna call it, and if I happened to BE that god/guide/force/flow/whatever the hell you wanna call it, (which to my everlasing relief I’ve discovered I am NOT!)  I’d be tellin ALL of you to just take a freaking BREAK till the  freakin smoke clears!

  4. Much, much earlier in the a.m., before I even got up, I had a feeling you were going to do this.  I don’t know why — it just came to me.

    I read a few of the comments from the previous essay that started the problems, and some of the continuation of comments in your essay of yesterday, Bootleg Raw . . . — not all.  I read just enough to see the vitriol, in general, in so many comments.  

    I confess that for me it was sad to see this.  I think we should disagree, when we disagree, but I think that it need not become vicious!  Part of the fact that it got to that level, I do believe, has to do with the “climate” of this country and all that goes on.  And people sometimes just wind up taking it out on each other, because of a lot of cooped up anger, frustration and deep sadness.

    I don’t know you very well, pf8, but I enjoy some of the exloratory areas of thought you open up so much of the time.

    Why not just go on a “sabbatical” for a while?  Don’t tell yourself to make it permanent in the heat of the day.  



  5. “Let a hundred flowers bloom;

    let a hundred schools of thought contend”

    Mao Tse-Tung said that.

    Does anybody here remember what happened next?

    But yes, we have to fight fair.

    Unfortunately, I missed the discussion in question. See my diary “What a rush!”

    I know, that’s pimping. But compared to what I heard happened, it ain’t so bad.

  6. Friday nite… what a rush! (A music diary)  

  7. Thanks for everything.

    • pico on June 30, 2008 at 18:44

    When I get frustrated with people, I just don’t read their stuff.  There are plenty of writers here I get along great with, and I wouldn’t leave this place for anything so long as they’re still here.

    Maybe my expectations are different from yours.  I’m not expecting to get along with everyone – and I’ve had some nasty fights with a few members, at that.  I just avoid them.  So what’s the problem?

  8. you can’t leave (she said, purely out of self interest)!! I don’t even know what’s been happening, but can’t it be put aside so we can all go on together? This is such an extraordinary group of people… and you’re such an amazing, original voice — everyone is, we need you all!! A sabbatical, like tahoebasha3 suggested — wouldn’t that work?? At least maybe think about it, please??  

    • robodd on June 30, 2008 at 19:16

    You can come back tomorrow as someone else!  To some extent, just like the world itself.

  9. it’s not just for the squeamish and timid and slightly conservative anymore.

    It’s also for those that have written a GBCW diary and wish they hadn’t.

    Imagine how much self control it takes to read and NOT respond.

    When I see some comment from 8eroifp, I’ll always wonder, but never really know…

    “See” you around… I think.

    • Edger on June 30, 2008 at 20:05

    I agree with every word you said here, pf8.

    The irony is that to my mind this is exactly what the place is for, to make ripples and incubate and spread ideas as far and wide as possible. To evangelize? Heh!

    To spread the 30,000 foot view.

    But you can’t get that view from the nest. You have to go higher, I think.

    I like watching the sky. Maybe people will see you up there flying by sometimes, and it will be a reminder that instead of trying to get you down to the ground that flapping might be a good idea.

    Take care, pf8. Fly high and far. 🙂

  10. All the good comments have been used, and all the regulars have wished you well, and have stated their hope for your speedy return. I’ll bob my ditto-head to all of these and add my own small words of peace, and understanding.

    The passion play of Victim/Victimizer is eternal and played out with stunning force the more sensitive one is. Yet at such moments some of our greatest strides are made in our developement as growing souls.

    Those are words that I posted to Robyn when I read her GBCWm and before I knew of your GBCW, but I think they apply here also.

    Our passions drive us to be who we are; no passion equals milktoast. And I don’t think that your passions for a just and loving world are going to be diminished by anything that has happened lately. Your passion and intellect will be sorely missed, if you find another forum, drop back by and let us know where to come say {{{{{{{hi}}}}}}}}

    Peace, and be well.

    • geomoo on June 30, 2008 at 21:00

    This is sad.  I was relieved to read that you’ve been thinking about this for some time.  That made me think it’s not a defensive reaction based on a few, admittedly hellish, days and interactions.

    I appreciated your thoughtful response to my comment the other day.  I felt bad ignoring it, but when it started to seem that words were hopeless, I quit responding to any of it, or reading it for that matter.  I guess I’m only writing to people who are leaving, of which there are two too many so far today.

    I’m here because you invited me over from dkos.  I literally would not be on this site without that.  I feel I got only the vaguest sense of who your are and I would love the chance to continue to get acquainted.  Maybe you really are burned out and need a break.  I don’t think any of us can fully appreciate the psychological damage done to us by the last few years.  It’s sad to see us turn on one another, but in many ways it is understandable.  I hope we can be kind to ourselves about it.

    I hope you are not leaving feeling you have been bullied out.  Never give in to a bully, real or perceived.  I hope you feel this is a considered decision based on matters as they really are.  If it is, I have nothing to say but good look and I hope our paths cross often.  Take care of yourself.

    • pfiore8 on June 30, 2008 at 21:15

    be well. be happy. and maybe we’ll all find some peace.

    but for, it isn’t here.

  11. and im sorry youre going away mad.  

    we’ll probably end up roomies in a detention camp somewhere….boy is THAT a reality show waiting to happen….

    …note to self: wear a helmet….

    • Viet71 on June 30, 2008 at 23:22

    pfiore8 and Edger.

    I’m taking off too.

  12. I get tired of it all too.  The personalities don’t bother me anymore just opening up a blog page and finding the post new icons missing.  Instead to taking people personally I have a classification system based upon the mulitiple levels of exposure to our ministry of truth media.

    You know me I’m positive.  Positive we are all screwed.

  13. So sorry to have taken you guys for granted while I just lurked.  I guess I lost my confidence in my writing, and in alot of things.  Thought I was just a break and that you’d be here when I returned, and now I am so sorry to hear that you won’t.  I can’t go back and read all the flame wars but I can see that this is really eating at you – I’ve been there myself on Orange, and taking a break really helps put things in perspective.

    Hope you will be back – I have the greatest admiration for you – please email me for 3-d world stuff.  I won’t miss you next time!

    • banger on July 1, 2008 at 02:43

    The political blogging thing is a dead-end. I stopped for about 6 months. People don’t seem able to read and understand–their minds are too full of themselves. I’ve found this to be the case since I started commenting on the web in the mid-90’s. It’s like a video game.

    For a passionate person like you it is not enough to blog–you must build and building takes sacrifice, dedication hard work and also laughing a lot (essential on construction sites). Building serious community is what we ought to be doing through pooling resources and bonding in community both economic, cultural and political. That is the sine qua non of real change. Obama, for example represents a yearning for change, so there is that in our cultural atmosphere–but we can’t do it as individuals who have nothing to fall back on and nobody to take care of their children should they incur the wrath of the system. What can the reporter do in the MSM but toe the line, if he/she doesn’t then he will be black-listed and cannot work in the field–if there were alternative institutions that gave that person some support more people would have the courage to say “no” to the man. I see this with the decent young folks I recently worked on a contract who were doing political things they didn’t really believe it (that’s a story in itself) because the pay was so good and their student loans so high.

    Take a break and don’t take all this so seriously. Hey we may just end up destroying ourselves pretty soon but in the ultimate scale of values the only reality is now and each of us as the holy Witness. Whatever obscures that reality we need to drop–then come back and be ready to fight with a sense of fun.

    • sharon on July 1, 2008 at 08:49

    i avoided the essay from the other day with the massive number of comments – just couldn’t go there – and i’m not sure why i read this tonight except that i have always had a soft spot for pf8.  i was sad that we never had a chance to meet before she left the nyc area.  and now she is leaving and edger is leaving and others have left that i don’t know about unless i read some painful essays.  what a shame and what a drag.  i don’t have much time to come here, but it is nice to see folks around when i do.  wtf?  can this be fixed somehow?  what are you all going to do with yourselves?  who are you going to talk to?  i’m sad to see this, but i will wish you luck out there.  take care and when you’re ready i hope you find your way back.

    • srkp23 on July 2, 2008 at 16:24

    Hope you will return here.

Comments have been disabled.