If Republicans got their Way ...

I want a country ... (4.00 / 3)

a country ...

that is moving forward,

one that will take the People's problems seriously,

one that will one day, help to save the planet.

Honestly, I never believed it then,
and don't believe it now,

when Nader said "there is not a wit of difference between,
the Democratic and Republican Party".

Ralph, btw, retracted that statement, years later,
admitting it was hyperbolic.

For the Nation, to move to "Progressive solutions",
it FIRST has to make it to "Democratic solutions" -- and to make those, the norm.

I believe the stakes in this election,
are much too high, for anyone to sit it out.

Don't you remember the Bush-Cheney years?
I do.  What we have now is miles better --
even if it still far from "arriving" to where we ultimately,
need to be.

imho.


Where's the Note?    -- SEIU

---

by: jamess @ Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 03:01:21 AM UTC

Your second point... (4.00 / 6)

If Republicans got their Way ... you couldn't Retire until 70.

...

I believe would be more accurate if it said:

you could never retire.

I have a couple of other small quibbles, but to focus on them misses the essence of what you are saying.

You say you want a country which is moving forward...etc.,

But does the democratic party show any signs of moving the country forward?  I don't think so.  At best, it might allow "We the People" to enjoy a modicum of comfortable wage slavery.  

That would be a tad more comfortable than never being able to retire, than having a $3 per hour minimum wage, etc...but, but, but... is that enough to warrant our acquiescence or, even more definitively,  our vote of approval?

I hear you Jamess, and thank you for your clear depiction of the situation.  I'm just not sure I can come to the same conclusion as you.  

All I can say is, "I'll keep chewing on all this!"


Breathe in emptiness and luminosity.  Breathe out compassion.

---

by: dharmasyd @ Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 03:36:21 AM UTC

If Republicans got their way ... (4.00 / 6)

they would arrange for a trojan horse 'democrat' to be elected president who would let bush and cheney and most of the previous republican administration of the hook effectively pardoning them for torture and all their other war crimes, expand the number of US troops sent to the overseas occupations the republicans started, give tens of trillions of dollars to wall street and other republican corporate cronies while ensuring the Military Industrial complex remains the most profitable racket in the history of humanity ¹, and then fall all over himself bending over backwards to give the republicans anything and everything else they demanded and more while conning the democratic base with an 'incremental bipartisanship' fantasy story to coopt that base into supporting republican policies across the board while insulting that base at every opportunity, and generally just screw the working classes every ways possible, while sending out scare letters to that democratic base demanding support and votes because republicans are scary.

All so that he could guarantee himself a lucrative post presidential career continuing to work for his constituents.

I hope republicans never get their way. They're scary.

¹ U.S. War Spending Now Exceeds That Of All States

If Republicans got their way fear would rule, and people would be terrorized into voting only of of fear rather than using their vote as the the only leverage they have to force concessions and progressive legislation out of the democrats.

If Republicans got their way fear would rule, and people would roll over and accept any amount of bipartisan bullshit and lies from Democrats instead of using fear to rule the Democrats and turn them into winners while destroying the Republicans.

If Republicans got their way fear would rule, and people would be bullied into accepting that nothing would ever change, instead of taking control.

That's kind of how we got in this MESS, in the first place ... by letting Republicans GET their Whiny Way ... for far TOO Many Years.

---

by: Edger @ Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 08:25:06 AM UTC

GOP Rule Would Embrace Fascism (4.00 / 5)

Dem rule means instituting corporate-state rule (fascism) but with a kinder more humanitarian face.
It's mostly window dressing differences between Dem and GOP.

I'll be scared later, right now I'm too mad--Bugs Bunny

---

by: taoskier @ Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 15:07:15 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Republicans have ben getting most of their way (4.00 / 4)

for the past 10 years, and especially since Obama was 'elected'.  

---

by: Edger @ Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 15:25:11 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Bingo... (4.00 / 2)

...Barack Obama is the Trojan Horse!  Good one, Edger.

Breathe in emptiness and luminosity.  Breathe out compassion.

---

by: dharmasyd @ Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 19:53:50 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Those are all the same thing the Dems will do. (4.00 / 3)

Obama is already attacking SS. He's already raised the defense budget and the CIA and so on and so on.

Wake up.  

---

by: wilberforce @ Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 15:46:13 PM UTC

And the Democrats aren't trying to do all these things how? (4.00 / 4)

If Republicans got their Way ... there would be no more Medicare.
If Republicans got their Way ... you couldn't Retire until 70.

If Republicans got their Way ... they'd privatize Social Security.

If Republicans got their Way ... there would be no more Corporate income tax.

If Republicans got their Way ... they'd eliminate taxes on Capital gains.

If Republicans got their Way ... they'd cut in half the taxes of the richest 1 percent.

If Republicans got their Way ... the Bush Tax Cut for the Rich would never end.

It is was DEMOCRAT, Barack Obama, who formed the catfood commission to cut Social Security and Medicare and raise the retirement age, and appointed its members, including Republican Alan Simpson.

It's DEMOCRATS, whose party is nominally in power until November, calling for an extension of the Bush tax cuts to the wealthy, along with the GOP.  Ironically enough, it's the REPUBLICAN House leader who is saying that he's willing to let the tax cuts for the wealthy expire in order to keep the middle class tax cuts.

It's the DEMOCRATS who, beholden to Wall Street, are moving to protect corporations from taxes on capital gains.

You're really telling us nothing we don't already know.  But what you so dishonestly leave out of your diatribe is that the DEMOCRATS are helping the GOP do all these things.

---

by: Archangel M @ Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 19:02:26 PM UTC

I don't think Jamess is being dishionest... (4.00 / 1)

But what you so dishonestly leave out of your diatribe is that the DEMOCRATS are helping the GOP do all these things.

I agree with your assessment (the dems are helping the GOP).  But I think it would be more conducive to discussion and, therefore, more reasonable and better to say:

"But what you so dishonestly leave out of your diatribe is that the DEMOCRATS are helping the GOP do all these things."

Since this would not feel so much like an attack, it is less likely to provoke an angry response and more condusive to reasonable discussion.

( I'll take my blog-cop-hat off now )


Breathe in emptiness and luminosity.  Breathe out compassion.

---

by: dharmasyd @ Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 20:32:55 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

James is being dishonest. (4.00 / 2)

He deliberately left out that part about Democrats helping or leading the charge to do all the things he lists because he knows it hurts his threatening demand to vote for Democrats because, well, just because.

---

by: Archangel M @ Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 20:41:38 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

You could be correct. (4.00 / 1)

I don't know James well enough to be able to tell whether he is being dishonest or not.  Because of this, I tend to give the benefit of the doubt.  

But with Obama.  I know he is dishonest.  He has proven that to me beyond a shadow of a doubt.   Others, however, might not see him that way.

Breathe in emptiness and luminosity.  Breathe out compassion.

---

by: dharmasyd @ Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 21:11:56 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I don't think jamess is being dishonest, dharmasyd! (4.00 / 1)

I shudder to think where we'd be at had the Repugs gotten in again, or should they get in again.  None of us are happy about a lot of things that are going on now and we want ACTION.  I think Obama is making an appeal to the base, that would be us, because he really needs us, so this is a time for the "base" to start making some STRONG demands!  I don't profess to have the answers, but I think the "leftists" could make a difference now!!!!

"At his best, man is the noblest of all animals; separated from law and justice he is the worst."--Aristotle

---

by: tahoebasha3 @ Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 21:21:59 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I don't think Jamess is being dishonest either... (4.00 / 1)

...as I stated in my first comment on this thread.  But I tried to soften my response and not be dogmatic in relation to Arch.  

Breathe in emptiness and luminosity.  Breathe out compassion.

---

by: dharmasyd @ Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 21:59:14 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Gotcha' ! (4.00 / 1)

"At his best, man is the noblest of all animals; separated from law and justice he is the worst."--Aristotle

---

by: tahoebasha3 @ Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 22:04:27 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

OTOH... (4.00 / 1)

...even if Obama does reach out to us because he realizes he needs us, I am just not capable of trusting him again.

Perhaps I'm being dogmatic here, but I've seen too much.  I do not trust him.  Even if he realizes he needs us, it will only be to get our votes; and then he will abandon us again.

The way Obama sucked all hope out of the body politic was simply too audacious.  His actions do not match his words.  

Breathe in emptiness and luminosity.  Breathe out compassion.

---

by: dharmasyd @ Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 22:08:03 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I didn't say the obvious -- actually, I stated (4.00 / 1)

that elsewhere.  I don't trust him either, because I think he's a weak person and caves in too easily.  But my point was that we are in a position to make demands, at least I think so.  

This time, if his words don't match his actions, he will be a loser period and guess what we might get in the trade-off?  

"At his best, man is the noblest of all animals; separated from law and justice he is the worst."--Aristotle

---

by: tahoebasha3 @ Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 23:21:22 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

thanks dharmasyd (4.00 / 2)

I may be misinformed,
but I'm not intentionally lying.

I do honest believe,
that getting Dems re-elected,
is much better than letting the GOP back into power.

In politics, there are very few clear
Black and White issues.

It's not like physics, or math,
however much any one person,
may feel they have "all the answers"
and a corner on "the truth".

I respect all people's right to vote,
or not vote, as they see fit.

I also respect, my own right,
to advocate, that others Do Vote, [for Dems]
because I believe this election,
will determine the course of the next 10 years.

that's just the way I see it.

Where's the Note?    -- SEIU

---

by: jamess @ Fri Sep 24, 2010 at 03:41:35 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

In all deference, Archangel M, (4.00 / 3)

most of what you're saying has ALL been agenda-pushed to this point by the Republicans.  Every important bill proposed has been met by vehement resistance by the Republicans and some like-minded Dems.  It's been the Republicans in the Senate who have filibustered anything and everything that might have stood a chance of going through.  Appointees have lingered forever, like Dawn Johnson, who finally gave up. That any bill, whatsoever, has managed to get through is just short of a miracle, albeit, well watered down.  I think a big part of the problem has had to do with Obama believing in bipartisanship and bending over and over in efforts to appease the Republicans.  But he may be getting the idea now -- Bernie Sanders has spoken of it, as have many others.  I, myself, wrote him a year ago on that very issue.  The Repugs only care about doing anything and everything to destroy Obama.

I don't like being in a "choose the lesser of two evils" position anymore than anyone else.  But Republicans and certain Dems do not give a GD about the people.  If Republicans had their way, there wouldn't even be unemployment insurance for the people.  Unemployment insurance is paid into by each and every employer, having over X number of employees -- it goes to the State and the State administers the program.

As for Social Security and Medicare?  The Republicans have been screaming for years and years about privatizing the programs.  No less in the ears of Obama, as well as demanding "fiscal responsibility" of him.  (Whadda' joke -- in 9 years, the Republicans in taking a surplus budget leftover from the Clinton Adm. and running the deficit up into the trillions, all owed to China and other countries.)  So, he formed a Debt Commission and, yes, I agree, Alan Simpson is the worst he could have appointed to head up the commission.  And Simpson is goaded on by Peter Peterson, whose foundation is funding all kinds of things to support the commission and the cutting of Social Security and Medicare.  

Every social issue, i.e., healthcare, care for the veterans, education, infrastructure, etc., the Bush Adm. defunded during its tenure and everything is falling apart, in all respects.  

I don't try to make excuses for Obama -- I just don't think he's strong enough to buck corporatism!  But, on the other hand, this country did not end up where it did  overnight, either.  It was methodically mapped out by the Bush Adm. (even prior to their seating) and none of what happened was an accident.  

Do you know that the Republicans have been withholding support of all the following National Security bills?  And all the years we heard about protecting our country, blah, blah, blah -- that's the lying Republicans, experts at expedience and lies -- whatever suits them, whenever!

H.R. 515, Radioactive Import Deterrence Act
H.R. 549, National Bombing Prevention Act
H.R. 603, Utah National Guard Readiness Act
H.R. 738, Death in Custody Reporting Act
H.R. 748, CAMPUS Safety Act
H.R. 780, Student Internet Safety Act
H.R. 1029, Alien  Smuggling and Terrorism Prevention Act
H.R. 1148, Conducting a program in the maritime environment for the mobile biometric identification of suspected individuals to enhance border security
H.R. 1327, Iran Sanctions Enabling Act
H.R. 1333, Regarding shipment of certain explosive materials to federally recognized Indian tribes
H.R. 1517, Relating to certain U.S. Customs and Border Protection employees
H.R. 1617, Department of Homeland Security Component Privacy Officer Act
H.R. l665, Coast Guard Acquisition Reform
H.R. 1727, Managing Arson Through Criminal History (MATCH) Act
H.R. 1741, Witness Security and Protection Grant Program Act
H.R. 1746, Pre-Disaster Mitigation Act
H.R. 2200, Transportation Security Administration Authorization Act
H.R. 2278, Directing President to submit a report to Congress a report on anti-American incitement to violence in the Middle East
H.R. 2410, Foreign Relations Authorization Act, FY 2010 and FY 2011
H.R. 2611, Authorizing the Securing the Cities Initiative of the Department of Homeland Security
H.R. 2454, American Clean Energy and Security Act
H.R. 2661, Court Security Act
H.R. 2749, Food Safety Enhancement Act
H.R. 2868, Chemical and Water Security Act
H.R. 3360, Cruise Vessel Security and Safety Act
H.R. 3371, Airline Safety and Pilot Training Improvement Act
H.R. 3619, Coast Guard Authorization Act

If the Repugs get in, where do you think we'd be at in a matter of months?

"At his best, man is the noblest of all animals; separated from law and justice he is the worst."--Aristotle

---

by: tahoebasha3 @ Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 21:12:38 PM UTC

That's an amazing list! (4.00 / 2)

Breathe in emptiness and luminosity.  Breathe out compassion.

---

by: dharmasyd @ Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 22:09:37 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Actually, it's both parties pushing the agenda. (4.00 / 1)

If it was only the Republicans pushing the catfood commission, you'd have a point.  But it was a DEMOCRAT, with the enthusiastic support of his party, who created the catfood commission to figure out ways to cut Social Security, medicare, medicaid, and other vital programs necessary to help the poor.  No one took a gun to Obama's head and forced him to do this.  It was him and the Democrats who have wanted this most.  If they didn't, there would be no catfood commission.

The same goes for every other policy failure on the part of Democrats, from torture and endless wars to Wall Street bailouts and deregulation.

When the Republicans get back in, things will be no different than they are now.  There has been absolutely no change for the better since Obama took office.  Nor has there been any since the Democrats took Congress.  That you continue to lie about this speaks volumes.

---

by: Archangel M @ Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 22:59:43 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I don't think I'm "lying" Archangel M! (4.00 / 2)

The Bush Adm. set the AGENDA, not Obama!  Obama inherited the RESULTS of that Administration and, as I pointed out above, it didn't happen overnight.  And it cannot be undone overnight either.  Cheney built a house 10 minutes walking distance from the CIA headquarters.  Just for the helluva' it, of course.  

Contrary to what you say, Obama has passed some good legislation, pretty much unnoticed, but good, nonetheless.  It is simply that we want the change on the really big issues.

Personally, I think the MIC is pretty much calling the shots on the foreign issues.  Secretary of Defense Gates is one very powerful human being, which is largely unknown to many!

And, there's just one more thing, Archangel M.  I just don't feel that blogging is quite enough and believe me, many of us here have done all sorts of things and even that's not enough.  But we need to be more "consolidated" and start making BIG TIME DEMANDS!    

"At his best, man is the noblest of all animals; separated from law and justice he is the worst."--Aristotle

---

by: tahoebasha3 @ Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 23:54:36 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

He's pushing Green candidates and they will act as spoilers to get the (3.00 / 3)

.... Republicans back in power.

Most of the Greens I have checked out, including the ones local to my district, and the ones mentioned in other diaries, are NOT filing campaign financial reports, which is typical of those who are hiding something.

It's really simple if candidates want to show where their funding comes from....  they file reports that are verifiable with the proper agency, not months later after somebody has to file a formal complaint to get any info.

The one media story I found on the one race up in Medocino county,  http://www.pressdemocrat.com/a...  the opponent to the Green has filed a complaint with the CA FPPC against, but because I have not studied the documents yet, I don't know for sure what is going on-  other than there is some big time Republican money up there in that area and that Arkley family usually tries to just buy off everybody in the area, but now they've got some big problems with paying their taxes. http://www.northcoastjournal.c...
and here is the recent followup story on the Balloon Track property Arkley owned
http://humboldtherald.wordpres...

2006 humboldt herald story that mentions both Arkley and Hamburg(now a Green) http://humboldtherald.wordpres...

Typically what happens is that candidates or who is doing their money collection, go ahead and violate, because the worst that happens, even with blog and media exposure, is that they get a write up and a fine after the investigation, months later, such as what happened with the LDS Church and the Prop 8 routine.   My current Republican Congressperson, McClintock, has had to repeatedly file his 2008 Federal documents over and over again, as requested by the FEC, because his money guy is a crook, and he's a crook as far as I am concerned, and they were doing all sorts of shady things, (he finished his campaign way in debt, too)  and the Republicans don't care, because it's irrelevant to them as long as their candidate wins.  The previous Republican, Doolittle, was an expert at converting campaign contributions to personal cash and getting casino money from Abramoff's clients.  The Republican operatives were also funding the wedge candidates.

Citizens United sucks. Supreme Court...  sucks.  

Of course there has been a change since the last election.  A different political party holds power.  There are different Cabinet members, and some legislation was passed that the Republicans desperately want to overturn, because they don't like it.  

How does one go after the few changes that have happened ?  If you want to wedge the Dems, this is how you do it.  You go to the edges and pull at them.  You keep calling the Left "liars," because the Republicans run on the Fake Morality ticket.  You appeal to the inner control freak on the right hand side of the aisle, and you give them "slots" to be able to stuff their opponents into. These slots are actually insults that turn most off.  Net result ?  Way depressed activist enthusiasm.  That's the goal.  Go for the lowest turnout.

When I saw how the Dems were, and still are, getting wedged on the one supposedly Democratic Big Box Blog, I said, bleep this.  I know a Republican talking point when I see it, because that is what I study when I am needing to refute their arguments.  I go to original sources.  I have to be able to switch into their dialect, and if I do it successfully, the moles will get very mad.  Hundreds and maybe thousands more are now milling around, waiting to see if the Dems could possibly get their act together enough that a return vote could be rationalized.

Meanwhile, the Republicans will do absolutely anything to get back in power. And the Senate is corrupt and complicit.

---

by: AmericanRiverCanyon @ Fri Sep 24, 2010 at 01:58:36 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

YES and YES! ARC! (4.00 / 1)

"At his best, man is the noblest of all animals; separated from law and justice he is the worst."--Aristotle

---

by: tahoebasha3 @ Fri Sep 24, 2010 at 02:24:19 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Democrats don't need Greens to spoil their elections. (4.00 / 1)

Just ask Martha Coakley.

Calling the base retarded, on drugs, issuing threats, and backstabbing said base at every opportunity is not a winning strategy.  THAT is what is costing your party elections.  Greens have nothing to do with it.  But we do offer an organization that actually represents the people, and if that bothers you, that is your fault and your problem.  Your party is not entitled to votes.  You can make your politicians run and govern on the left, which would negate whatever impact Greens have in elections, or be content to keep losing as you turn more and more voters away from you.

Everyone has to grow up some time.  I suggest you start doing it.

---

by: Archangel M @ Fri Sep 24, 2010 at 12:26:56 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Nobody but nobody who votes cares that one blogger called another names (2.50 / 2)

.... just like you've been doing repeatedly throughout your diaries and threads, on this site and others, which I already documented.

Your technique is exactly like blogger Aaron Park of the Placer County Republican Assembly . Make a lot of noise, call other people a lot of names, hurl a lot of trash around, make up crap, and then when people dug into it, it turned out he was getting paid by competing Republican factions and candidates to do it.  He's currently on Carly Fiorina's payroll. That's the "people" he represents.  

What people like Aaron do is waste time pushing out trash talking like used kitty litter, because it's a time sucking mechanism for others to have to fact check him, and because it works for some factions to repeatedly say bad things.

At least you have no idea why Coakley lost in Massachusetts, either.  Keep up the charades.  Tah - ta!

 

---

by: AmericanRiverCanyon @ Fri Sep 24, 2010 at 14:54:44 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Well ... (4.00 / 3)

... I don't think Archangel is a Republican or being paid by Republicans.

I am, however, really tired of pointless fights -- at this point I don't have any idea of the actual argument in this essay.

I was entertained by the fight between you and Archangel M in his essay but now it's spreading to other essays and it's getting on my nerves.

As far as this:

Make a lot of noise, call other people a lot of names, hurl a lot of trash around, make up crap ...

... that's hardly limited to Republicans.  One look at the centrists at Orange - and that's only one example -- proves that.  The phenomenon isn't even limited to political blogs.  It's the crap side of human nature.

Anyway, my 2 cents.

---

by: Nightprowlkitty @ Fri Sep 24, 2010 at 15:12:58 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Look, (3.00 / 3)

....  You know that they repeatedly send around people to mess with me, don't you ?  And with the other people here ?

I wasn't doing that for entertainment.

I documented he used multiple identities, multiple blogs, and comes on to other liberal blogs repeatedly, to do nothing but start fights with the other bloggers under the guise of pushing wedge candidates.

If he actually represented any candidates, they or their public media representatives would be taking him aside and telling him to either stop it or he's gone.

There are no "centrists" at Orange.   There are the few token liberals to provide controlled contrast, the people there merely for their social internet life who don't think about anything too much, and the various corporate interests who are pushing things, who still bully people and who are still not disclosing what they're really up to,  and the professional political consultants and professional writers and their attorneys. "Centrist" is a word invented by the MSM television media to describe Democrats which can be rolled.  "Centrist" is regularly applied to Mary Landrieu, Ben Nelson, Blanche Lincoln, Kent Conrad and even Joe Lieberman by the regular news media. Do you really think that Dems who almost always sabotage their own party on the votes, and are the pets of Fox News, are "centrists?" "Centrist" means there are no differences between the parties.

He came on to this blog with the title "Bloggers behaving badly" with a shout out to the Hamsher contingent in the title, using the name of one of her moderators.  I'm surprised he didn't use the phrase firebagger.

He could have written a candidate diary on the issues, and he didn't.  His entire schtick is attacking other bloggers as liars and discrediting them.

I am really sick of this repeated crap.  I can't shut up the people over at Orange who are making a game out of doing this to what is left of  the more liberal contingent, but I can ask that their Reindeer Games not be dragged over to this blog, if this blog has indeed been put under some sort of retaliatory threat.

I'm also reading where they don't think, and I know that they are actively continuing this sort of time wasting warfare because they certainly have a lot of free time and now cash to do it.  

I have better things to do than to defer to people who hate me just for researching who got paid to vote on what,  by repeatedly trying not to offend their faux delicate sensibilities.  I and others have been told not to diss on that Big Box here in specifics, I don't see why "Archangel M" aka "Michael Kwiatowski" or whatever he's calling himself lately, gets to act as a surrogate for them.

"don't lie and I won't call you a liar"

Yeah, like we really need this sort of crap following us around, monitoring our content.

I am sorry that I sound annoyed, and I am not aggravated with you NP, but since he originally misrepresented Rayne's thesis in the diary he was critiquing, on top of all that, I am frankly sceptical of his intent.

---

by: AmericanRiverCanyon @ Fri Sep 24, 2010 at 18:29:18 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I understand ... (4.00 / 2)

... and though we aren't annoyed at the exact same thing, we are both annoyed.

I didn't think you were arguing with AM to be entertaining -- but the language did become somewhat entertaining.  Didn't mean any disrespect there.

Bottom line -- folks are not allowed to call each other liars or name-call generally at this blog.  I held my tongue when the arguing was confined to one essay, but now AM has spread this kind of nonsense to other essays.

---

by: Nightprowlkitty @ Fri Sep 24, 2010 at 18:39:25 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Not sure about that, NPK! (4.00 / 1)

I believe it was the Ed Schultz show today, or maybe, the Thom Hartmann show, that there are Republicans out there posing as Independents -- could be, since there has been so much talk about voting Independent, 3rd party or Green or whatever!  

"At his best, man is the noblest of all animals; separated from law and justice he is the worst."--Aristotle

---

by: tahoebasha3 @ Sat Sep 25, 2010 at 03:03:00 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Well ... (4.00 / 1)

... I don't sense that, but what do I know?

I don't care if s/he IS a Republican secret agent so long as s/he stops running around calling people liars.

Gets on my nerves.

---

by: Nightprowlkitty @ Sat Sep 25, 2010 at 03:22:55 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

We ALL gottem,' er, nerves, that is, big time! (4.00 / 1)

Anyway, what got my dander up was an effort to discredit what I said.

What really got to me was an attempt, it seemed to me, to indicate that Obama was the "originator" of attacks on our Social Security, etc.  Yes, he did create the Debt Commission for the reasons I have read, but beyond that, this issue has been on the board for a long, long time and was and is, in fact, a huge issue of Republicans.  They're just dying to get their hands on some $3 trillion awaiting baby-boomers.

It's also important to continue to reiterate:  THESE MONIES BELONG TO THE HARD-WORKING AMERICANS, WHO CONTRIBUTED TO THESE FUNDS FOR ALL of THEIR LONG YEARS OF WORKING LIVES.  THE MONIES ARE NOT TO BE USED BY THE GOVERNMENT AS AND FOR THEIR OWN PURPOSES -- THE MONIES TO NOT BELONG TO THE GOVERNMENT.  RATHER, THE GOVERNMENT WAS AND IS TO ACT IN A FIDUCIARY CAPACITY!  

I don't think the message can be said enough!

"At his best, man is the noblest of all animals; separated from law and justice he is the worst."--Aristotle

---

by: tahoebasha3 @ Sat Sep 25, 2010 at 03:35:14 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Oh, my, I thought I had lost the above, so I re-created it below! (0.00 / 0)

Jimminy!

"At his best, man is the noblest of all animals; separated from law and justice he is the worst."--Aristotle

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by: tahoebasha3 @ Sat Sep 25, 2010 at 03:47:20 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

We ALL gottem,' er, nerves, that is -- big time! (4.00 / 1)

What got my dander up was an effort to discredit what I said.  Yes, Obama did create the Debt Commission for the reasons, as far as I understand, that I stated.

But, it seemed to me, there was an effort to make it appear as though Obama was the "originator" of the attack on Social Security, etc., when, in fact, it has been on the Republican agenda for a long, long time.

Re: Independents?  Well, just think about it for a moment -- not beyond the realm of imagination.  Yes, I'd like to believe that an Independent is truly fighting for Independents -- but knowing the propensity of the Repugs for "twisting" anything and everything, it's quite possible that it may, in fact, be a disguised effort of the Repugs. (Turn people on to Independents, knowing they most likely will not win.)

"At his best, man is the noblest of all animals; separated from law and justice he is the worst."--Aristotle

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by: tahoebasha3 @ Sat Sep 25, 2010 at 03:45:22 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Better put, using the guise of Independents (4.00 / 1)

against Obama will take the onus off of Repugs and not necessarily get a vote for Independents, but for Repugs!

Hey, if Bernie Sanders was running and HE is an Independent, he'd have me in a heartbeat.  But, even he, often points out the nuances and the huge obstacles as are prevalent.


"At his best, man is the noblest of all animals; separated from law and justice he is the worst."--Aristotle

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by: tahoebasha3 @ Sat Sep 25, 2010 at 04:01:13 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Don't lie and I won't call you a liar. (2.00 / 2)

Simple as that.

Now, as to Coakley, you and I both know she was a corporate Democrat who supported the restrictions on abortion that were in the health insurance boondoggle passed by the Democrats.  Pro-abortion voters didn't take too kindly to that.  Furthermore, Coakley supported a health insurance bill that was modeled on something that had already proven to be a failure in Massachusetts, which was by no means a good idea.  Finally, diatribes calling disaffected liberals "Naderites" if they didn't turn out in droves to vote for Coakley don't make people enthusiastic to waste their ballots on your candidates.

Grow up some - actually, no, grow up a lot - and stop lying and bullying people.  

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by: Archangel M @ Fri Sep 24, 2010 at 17:39:38 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

And I happen to know for a fact that you ARE lying. (0.00 / 0)

The facts are in writing.  Obama and the Democrats created the catfood commission.  This is fact.  The Republicans might love it, seeing as how they share this agenda, but they did not lead the push for it.  This is fact.  For you to insist otherwise is a flat out lie.  You know this.

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by: Archangel M @ Fri Sep 24, 2010 at 12:23:44 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

You ... (3.40 / 5)

... are getting on my last nerve here.

You want to say folks are wrong, fine.  Calling them liars is not fine.  No one here is your enemy so stop treating them as though they are.

You cannot say your interpretation of someone's motivation is a "fact."  It isn't.  It's just your opinion.

Cut it out.  I don't like it when I'm forced to moderate because you can't control yourself.  Really pisses me off.  You are a valued poster here.  Stop insulting people.

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by: Nightprowlkitty @ Fri Sep 24, 2010 at 13:33:27 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Gimme a break. (0.00 / 0)

When people obviously lie, I am going to call them the liars they are.  They are not wrong; they are lying - period.  If you don't want to accept that, that's fine.  You're entitled to have your opinion and express it.  I expect you to respect my right to express my opinion.

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by: Archangel M @ Fri Sep 24, 2010 at 17:36:38 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

No. (3.00 / 3)

I won't give you a break.

You are not allowed to go around calling people liars because you think it is a "right."  It isn't a "right" here at DD nor do you accomplish anything by smearing other posters with your insults.

You said it was a matter of "fact" that this poster was lying.  Now you are saying it is an "opinion."

Get your story straight and cut it out with the name calling.

If you need to call folks liars to get your point across then you don't have much of a point to begin with.

This isn't a request, Archangel M.

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by: Nightprowlkitty @ Fri Sep 24, 2010 at 17:43:46 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

So you're saying some people here can lie all they want, but call them on it and get punished? (0.00 / 0)

The lie told in this thread is that Republicans are the ones who've been pushing cuts in Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and so on.  That is on the record.  It is a lie because it was not Republicans who formed the catfood commission, nor was it Republicans who appointed its arch-conservative chairs.

http://fdlaction.firedoglake.c...

http://unsilentgeneration.com/...

http://www.ourfuture.org/blog-...

http://www.truth-out.org/obama...

These are the facts, in writing.  It is a LIE to say that the Republicans were behind this when it was Democrats who created it and who picked its leaders.

You can order me about all you want, but you're going to be disappointed to find that I take orders from no one.  These people are liars, you know it, I know it, and they know it.  Please stop abusing your moderator powers.  There is absolutely nothing wrong or inflammatory about calling a liar a liar.  There is something incredibly inflammatory, however, about lying and defending those who lie.  You know this as well.

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by: Archangel M @ Fri Sep 24, 2010 at 18:49:50 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Oh cram it. (3.00 / 3)

I'm saying you don't need to call other posters here liars.

You're the one who is trying to order folks about.

I'm simply reminding you this is not your blog and you can and will be suspended if you don't learn to control yourself.

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by: Nightprowlkitty @ Fri Sep 24, 2010 at 19:02:51 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I am going to repeat what I wrote above, in part: (2.50 / 2)

As for Social Security and Medicare?  The Republicans have been screaming for years and years about privatizing the programs.  No less in the ears of Obama, as well as demanding "fiscal responsibility" of him.   (Whadda' joke -- in 9 years, the Republicans in taking a surplus budget leftover from the Clinton Adm. and running the deficit up into the trillions, all owed to China and other countries.)  So, he formed a Debt Commission and, yes, I agree, Alan Simpson is the worst he could have appointed to head up the commission.  And Simpson is goaded on by Peter Peterson, whose foundation is funding all kinds of things to support the commission and the cutting of Social Security and Medicare.

No one on this blog deliberately lies about anything.  What I have written is my understanding of much read material.  Calling me a liar does not make me a liar.

I'm not sure what your agenda is, but here on this blog, we are truth seekers and searching for remedies with a measure of civility in our discourses.

"At his best, man is the noblest of all animals; separated from law and justice he is the worst."--Aristotle

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by: tahoebasha3 @ Fri Sep 24, 2010 at 16:14:07 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Repeat your lies all you want. It won't make them true. (1.00 / 1)

But go on kidding yourself.  It's amusing to see you deny reality.

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by: Archangel M @ Fri Sep 24, 2010 at 17:37:39 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

It won't be amusing to suspend you (3.00 / 3)

But I will if you don't chill the fuck out.

What exactly do you think you are accomplishing by insisting other people are liars?

Reality is the result of war between two rival groups of programmers,

so....Roar Louder!!!

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by: buhdydharma @ Fri Sep 24, 2010 at 18:25:45 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I'm telling the truth. It's not my fault you can't handle it. (0.00 / 0)

What is it with you, anyway?  You had no problem dumping on Daily Kos back in the day for telling the exact same kind of lies in defense of their party's politicians that the people here are doing now.  I did not start this episode.  The Obamabots did by insulting everyone here with their lame deceptions.  All I'm doing is pointing out the inherent dishonesty in their posts.

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by: Archangel M @ Fri Sep 24, 2010 at 18:52:52 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

What a load of crap (3.25 / 4)

there ARE no Obamabots here.

That alone proves how irrationally you are acting.

Get a grip.

And when you do, reread the posts of people trying to do more than think in black and white terms, instead of just switching on the hate meter.

A whole bunch of people are asking you to calm down and take off the hate goggles. If you do you may see things differently.

In the meantime.....

Reality is the result of war between two rival groups of programmers,

so....Roar Louder!!!

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by: buhdydharma @ Fri Sep 24, 2010 at 19:08:51 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Have it your way, then. (0.00 / 0)

It's a pity you let your blog be taken over by Obamabots.  You let yourself be corrupted by moral relativism.  Lies are not merely differing opinions.  They are lies.  Take the blinders off once in a while.n  At any rate, I wish you well on your journey over to The Dark Side.  Take care.

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by: Archangel M @ Fri Sep 24, 2010 at 19:24:27 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

** (2.50 / 2)

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by: AmericanRiverCanyon @ Fri Sep 24, 2010 at 19:36:21 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

"obamabots ?" "lame deceptions?" "inherent dishonesty?" (4.00 / 1)

....  lol

okay, whatever floats your boat.  

Geez, give me some more, this is so much more entertaining than having the local Green candidate rip off the local Dem candidate's issues page, and having his entire candidacy be based on being Not Really Having Any Government Experience or Educational Training, But He Coaches Youth Sports.

 

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by: AmericanRiverCanyon @ Fri Sep 24, 2010 at 19:16:24 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

* (4.00 / 1)

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by: AmericanRiverCanyon @ Fri Sep 24, 2010 at 19:29:14 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Have you ever heard of Peter G. Peterson? (4.00 / 1)

Peter G. Peterson, is an 84-year old Republican billionaire, who believes the elderly are a "drain on society," has been against Social Security and Medicare for years -- lobbying against it, and he has funded millions to The Peter G. Peterson Foundation, and launched a campaign a number of years ago to dismantle Social Security and Medicare under the guise of "fiscal responsibility."  I've even read that he has (illegally) contributed to the Debt Commission, probably through Alan Simpson, his long-time buddy!

In February, PGPF launched a $1 million advertising campaign in advance of President Obama's Fiscal Responsibility Summit on February 23, 2009 arguing that significant long-term structural deficits and growing debt burdens were threats to the United States.

Big Lies and Social Security: Peter Peterson's Retirement is Secure

Here's a google!

The point of all this is to show that guys like Peterson and his Republican buddies have been at this a long time -- only in recent years did it become referred to as "fiscal responsibility" rather than "privatization."
 

"At his best, man is the noblest of all animals; separated from law and justice he is the worst."--Aristotle

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by: tahoebasha3 @ Fri Sep 24, 2010 at 20:13:19 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

From Molly Ivins, (4.00 / 2)

may she rest in peace!

Social Security Suicide
ELECTION 2004  
The Bushies don't want to mend Social Security, they want to end it - and they are quite upfront about it.

AlterNet / By Molly Ivins  
December 14, 2004  

Relatively recent writings on Social Security, both to reform and not reform, convince me of two things. One is that we should be looking for maximum skepticism in our sources on this subject. And the second is that anybody who starts with dismissive, condescending and absolutist views isn't worth reading or listening to on this subject. So that leaves out politicians. . . . .

Obama Will Fight with Us to Quash the Campaign to Loot Social Security -- Right

Behind closed doors, powerful interests are pushing Obama to tap Social Security to pay for bank bailouts. How he responds will shape his presidency.

By William Greider
February 14, 2009  

Governing elites in Washington and Wall Street have devised a fiendishly clever "grand bargain" they want President Obama to embrace in the name of "fiscal responsibility." The government, they argue, having spent billions on bailing out the banks, can recover its costs by looting the Social Security system. They are also targeting Medicare and Medicaid. The pitch sounds preposterous to millions of ordinary working people anxious about their economic security and worried about their retirement years. But an impressive armada is lined up to push the idea--Washington's leading think tanks, the prestige media, tax-exempt foundations, skillful propagandists posing as economic experts and a self-righteous billionaire spending his fortune to save the nation from the elderly. . . . .

I have much more if anyone is interested in MORE!

 

"At his best, man is the noblest of all animals; separated from law and justice he is the worst."--Aristotle

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by: tahoebasha3 @ Sat Sep 25, 2010 at 02:00:48 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Greider has been warning everyone for a long time... (4.00 / 2)

Now The Nation's national affairs correspondent, William Greider has been a political journalist for more than 35 years. A former Rolling Stone and Washington Post editor, he is the author of the national bestsellers "One World, Ready or Not", "Secrets Of The Temple", "Who Will Tell The People", "The Soul Of Capitalism" and, most recently, "Come Home America".

This past Thursday, March 27 [2009], William Greider was again interviewed, this time by another veteran journalist, Bill Moyers, on the PBS program Bill Moyers Journal, and issued one of the most ominous political evaluations and warnings of his long career...

   BILL MOYERS: Yeah, the corporate state is here.

   WILLIAM GREIDER: The corporate state is here. And I'd say, let's not argue over that. The fact is, if the Congress goes down the road I see them going down, they will institutionalize the corporate state in a way that will be severely damaging to any possibility of restoring democracy. And I want people to grab their pitch forks, yes, and be unruly. Get in the streets. Be as noisy and as nonviolently provocative as you can be. And stop the politicians from going down that road. And let me add a lot of politicians need that to be able to stand up. Our President needs that to be able to stand up.

transcript here...

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by: Edger @ Sat Sep 25, 2010 at 02:15:49 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Of interest, perhaps, (0.00 / 0)

is this exchange!

"At his best, man is the noblest of all animals; separated from law and justice he is the worst."--Aristotle

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by: tahoebasha3 @ Sat Sep 25, 2010 at 03:51:39 AM UTC

[ Parent ]