Mobile version

Fuck The Meta

  

by: Turkana

Mon Apr 12, 2010 at 10:39:24 PDT


( - promoted by buhdydharma )

What it comes down to is this: I'm sick of Daily Kos meta. I'm an issues guy, and I know that most of you are issues people, but the meta bullshit is driving us away from what most interests us. It's driving us away from what we do best.
Turkana :: Fuck The Meta
I've been involved in enough flame wars, and I'm tired of them. Life is short and fragile. I have better things to do. People jump into my diaries and flame me, and more and more I don't even bother reacting. They're wastes of my time. They lie about me, they smear me, they hijack my threads with their petty personal agendas, and they're such tiny little people that I couldn't see them even if I used a microscope. If they could argue the substance, they would. Since they can't, they make it personal. More and more, I don't care.

I do care that I have discovered I can engage in meaningful dialogue with some people I hadn't expected to. I do care that while I may have intense arguments with some people on some issues, I can discover surprising layers of agreement on other issues. Even when they strongly and pointedly disagree with me on the issues, if they argue the issues, I know they are substantive people. And I welcome their engaging me on the issues. That's what interests me.

I write what I write at Daily Kos because I want to teach and learn and try to effect some movement on the issues. Those that care more about personalities than issues continually try to make it difficult. But they win only when I descend to their level. More and more, I try not to. And more and more, as I stated, I find that some are capable of genuine and genuinely respectful discourse. But what most frustrates me about some of you here who I consider ideological allies is that by getting dragged so much into the meta, by getting so entangled in it that you sometimes lose your own perspectives just as I once did and still occasionally do, you end up not being available to do what you do best, and what is needed most: engaging on the issues. Write about the issues. Prove yourselves right on the issues. Help the rest of us who are trying to fight for the issues.

Fuck the meta. The very small people win when you get caught up in the meta. They win whenever you waste time on the meta and on their bullshit. Do what you do best and you will be surprised to discover that some you hadn't expected to be are a lot closer to your viewpoints than you realize. Figure out who those are, and engage with them. Allow yourselves to be surprised. Leave the rest alone. Let them continually prove what they are about. It's their problems, not yours. It's their time, not yours. You don't need to call them out on it, because they prove what they are simply by being what they are. If you rise above, you will draw the contrast by so doing. But what really matters is that your time is better spent. We need you doing what you're capable of doing. Fuck the meta. Help us fight on the issues.  
Tags: , , , (All Tags)
Print Friendly View Send As Email

Fuck The Meta | 171 comments
bring (4.00 / 44)
it.

the glory, the love, the madness.
I loathe to say it (4.00 / 2)
but it does drive up hits and bring new users. Maybve lowest common denominator users, but sometimes really wonderful ones, that want to move away from the kos-crap and into real dialogue.

I know at least one person )not budhy) who used to do it on purpose to gaind reader/writers.

Me?

Meh, not my thing.

Visit me @ The Wild Wild Left! Crossposting is good for us all!

[ Parent ]
You can't stop today ... (4.00 / 3)
... when its coming down the track ( and in Orange) ...


Support Lesbian creative works, 100% Yuri from ALC Press
[ Parent ]
More important than any "issue" (4.00 / 6)
Power.  Balances of power, relations of power.  Institutionalized expression of power.  For almost 40 years now there has been a relentless upward redistribution of power in this society.  

People talk easily of "speaking truth to power" but you can speak all the truth you want, if you have no power of your own real power won't hear you.  You do not get power by giving power, ceding what power you have, to the powerful.  It is not "getting organized" to be signed up with someone's campaign volunteer staff.  Look at that 12 million or however many members there are of OFA.  What power do they exercise on their own behalf?  None whatsoever.  12 million people organized in a single body and their combined efforts and resources do exactly jack squat to advance their own interests, build their own power.  How ridiculous is that.

Class consciousness, solidarity, and self-organization, these are the tools to begin redressing the imbalances of power.

"We who have been nothing shall be all.  This is the final struggle."  ~E. Pottier

[ Parent ]
can I get an AMEN !!! (4.00 / 3)
Power.

who gotz it?

"When you realize how perfect everything is you will tilt your head back and laugh at the sky" Buddha

[ Parent ]
DKos = energy sink (4.00 / 11)
It's just that simple. I've been Kos-free for over six months, and it feels great. How is that more and better Democrats thing working out for them, I wonder?

I just changed my voter registration to Green Party, and that's where I will make my political contributions and spend my energy.  

green party lost my interest forever (4.00 / 9)
in 2000.

dk is now more focused on the better than the more. they're even deeply involved in trying to primary blanche lincoln. but i once took about a year's hiatus. it can be exahausting.

the glory, the love, the madness.

[ Parent ]
We are working (4.00 / 10)
to eventually primary our blue dog in NY-13, It takes time.

I took my leave for a year. Only we can make it better. There are comments and users now on my ignore list.

"By the pricking of my thumb, something wicked this way comes.", Wm. Shakespeare, "Macbeth"

[ Parent ]
as you know (4.00 / 10)
i also sometimes adopt them as diary mascots.  

the glory, the love, the madness.
[ Parent ]
LOL I do recall (4.00 / 6)


"By the pricking of my thumb, something wicked this way comes.", Wm. Shakespeare, "Macbeth"
[ Parent ]
:-) n/t (4.00 / 6)


"By the pricking of my thumb, something wicked this way comes.", Wm. Shakespeare, "Macbeth"
Yes........................... ...........................................but (4.00 / 25)
There comes a time when you have to take a stand.

Even if that stand is down in the mud.

The trick is in not staying there when the fight is over.

Reality is the result of war between two rival groups of programmers,

so....Roar Louder!!!

brilliant! (4.00 / 8)
♥~

come firefly-dreaming with me..&..do no harm
[ Parent ]
Hi Ria (4.00 / 4)
I'm going to take some of that brilliance into my life right now.  I have been given the gift of time since I was laid off at the end of February.  Getting my feet under me in a new part time job now.  I feel like I have some energy to give back.  How is life, your garden?
[ Parent ]
pretty good (4.00 / 3)
garden is slow getting in this year.
mrD finally got some work after over a year without...but it's right when i need his help in the garden :(
once it gets plowed & set up i can plant, weed, etc...
but i have COPD & it's hard for me... i can't do the heavy work myself anymore.
i have started my own wee-tiny blog (see sigline) i have some articles up on growing vegetables... we're getting together resource lists for different areas...
come visit!

come firefly-dreaming with me..&..do no harm
[ Parent ]
Oh, yeah! (4.00 / 3)
I'm maritime NW zone.  Still cool here even though we had a super mild winter and everything has been until now, about 3 weeks early.  Mr. Metta is a boat carpenter so spring is his busy time and now he has a boat to keep up.  I could use help too. Last summer someone gave me purple sprouting broccoli which I didn't recognize until early winter.  I pulled up over half the blasted "non-producing plants"  We had a few tasty sprouts with our dinner tonight.

I'll visit the garden thread for sure.  Cheers.

[ Parent ]
it has to end (4.00 / 18)
we need you posting on the issues, not on the meta. and it makes them even madder when they can't refute you on the issues!

the glory, the love, the madness.
[ Parent ]
I had that experience (4.00 / 10)
just the other day...

With what I think may be an OFA operative who chose to not respond to any of my foreign and domestic policy criticisms in one of my diaries the other day at dkos, but instead attempted to spin policy criticisms into something else entirely:

So -- [Obama] may using some of the same language of the past -- but I find it hard to believe that he shares the sentiments behind those words that would make them mean the same thing they would if Dick Cheney said them.

Now -- no matter somebody's track record -- no matter how well somebody may actually know somebody else -- we can always be wrong.  So -- I'm not claiming certainty.  But I think the progressives who malign his character and want to bring him down should slow down a bit and consider that they may be wrong.  If they were to succeed in crippling him only to find out later that they were wrong -- we can't undo the damage. I wish they'd at least wait until closer to the next election before condemning him.


He couldn't respond to my policy criticisms because I could not be "wrong" about things that have already happened.


[ Parent ]
i doubt it's an operative (4.00 / 5)
operatives behave professionally.

the glory, the love, the madness.
[ Parent ]
femlaw Is OFA And Professional (4.00 / 6)
I disagree with her somewhat but she is above board in how she interacts at dKos.  

I'll be scared later, right now I'm too mad--Bugs Bunny
[ Parent ]
she's great (4.00 / 5)
even when i disagree with her, she's always worth reading.

the glory, the love, the madness.
[ Parent ]
i agree. (4.00 / 2)


"We all live in a house on fire, no fire department to call; no way out, just the upstairs window to look out of while the fire burns the house down with us trapped, locked in it."  -Tennessee Williams
[ Parent ]
He has posted only two diaries there (4.00 / 3)
His first was I support Obama and OFA, and his username is hatecloudsyourthoughts. His first gambit in my diary was a thinly veiled attempt at accusing me of racism if I criticized Obama.

The combination of the three was what made me suspect 'operative'.

[ Parent ]
that's not how (4.00 / 3)
a real operative would behave.

the glory, the love, the madness.
[ Parent ]
Very true (4.00 / 5)
he impressed me as someone who was loyal to Obama but a bit conflicted about the two wars. Such blind loyalty becomes a problem when finally confronted with a policy you clearly don't agree with.

"By the pricking of my thumb, something wicked this way comes.", Wm. Shakespeare, "Macbeth"
[ Parent ]
Ah, cognitive dissonance. (4.00 / 3)
Ain't it a bitch....  I think a lot of people are slowly reaching a similar point.  Everyone has their bridge-too-far, it is simply a matter of time before they reach it.  A lot of them will reach it when/if Obama nominates a non-liberal for Justice Stevens' seat.  Wait, watch and see.

"Fighting Fascism is Always Cool." -- Amsterdam Weekly, volume three, issue 18

(-8.50, -7.23)
[ Parent ]
Well, you spend more time there than I do (4.00 / 3)
so I'll accept your judgment of it.
[ Parent ]
uhm, ah, (4.00 / 11)
.... another problem is that I and many others have been told specifically not to discuss this.  

Another poster uid at GOS is being harrassed by another poster uid at GOS.  And I'm not speaking about myself nor the other uid.

Honestly, if I saw that this "other" was working on my (hypothetical) candidate's campaign, I'd have ratted them out directly to the campaign manager, with proof,  because it is that unprofessional, based on what I'm not supposed to be admitting I observed, based on readily available public information the perp  other poster uid  ain't bothering to be subtle about.

So you didn't read this here.

I'm not buying the "we would never do such a thing" excuse from anybody at this point.  And I'm not dumb enough to think that the way they would retaliate wouldn't be significant, if they thought they could get away with it, based on my life experiences.

While you're not reading it nor anything I said, you may want to read another poster's excellent discussion on activists vs. partisans

http://www.dailykos.com/commen...


Elections are about partisan activity, but activists can't be persuaded to join in without activism taking primacy between elections.  Without that record of accomplishment to cite, activist complaints about partisanship being hollow are difficult to refute.  Partisans need to understand that they are too few to win elections, and that they have to learn to act as activists when the election is over, to keep their potential allies on their side.

I almost don't want to link it, because now this person is going to get trashed for it.


The corrupt governing system will never be solved by partisan politics, because whoever is elected must function within that corrupt system.  Not everybody is corrupted by it, but most are despite themselves.

It will take a strong activist movement to change the corruption in government, and partisans will be difficult to persuade of its necessity.  In order for them to come aboard, they will have to drop their most deeply held belief.  When it comes to institutionalized corruption, the Democrats are not better enough.  We must be able to criticize our own, to punish them when necessary and to not let up when other issues are brought in as distractions.

and a response

As a self-identified activist
of course you'd think that.

As a self-identified partisan, of course I think that activists need to be more willing to live with half a loaf now in order to get another half tomorrow.  

There are two sides to every coin.

While that may sound great if you didn't remember firsthand the Clinton and Reagan administrations because you were either oblivious or too young, for the rest of us, this is just another rationalization.  
Or, as someone said earlier this morning, they've been waiting 50 years.... for equality....

At the very beginning of the health care reform discussion, I sat down with the calculator and worked some numbers with the national budget to see if my arguments could hold water, so I wouldn't be blowing smoke.  So I felt comfortable, since we are supposedly the greatest military power on planet earth, and have lots of money to spend,  arguing for a better system that would, overall, cover everyone, cost less, and have better statistical outcomes.  

And at the age of being over fifty, I was told by the partisans to shut up and be satisfied by more of that "half a loaf."  Cool, they're just planning to outlive most of us.  

These types of partisan people do not represent anything I want to advocate for, at this point.

It's crap, it's a power ploy, and they know it.  

So, I figured that there was only one way to deal with this particular organization, and that was to reject it.  I don't want to be working to elect merely more and less effective candidates from any party, and I don't want the current party in power to get their jollies and score more donations by making an example of bashing women, enviro hippie granola munchers, lgbt peoples, the physically challenged, minorities, unemployed people, people who lost their mortgages thru no fault of their own, whatever.

But that is what a lot of these Blue Dog Candidates are going to be expected to do.

It's not going to stop.  The WH set up this dynamic when they decided to use various conservative Senators as the villain du jour than they had to compromise with to get otherwise "too liberal" policies passed.  The problem is the general public would like some of those policies very much.

And as I said yesterday, any political party that has the President and both House and Senate all in power at once, yet uses the excuse that they can't get anything done, doesn't have any excuses anymore.

This is just an immense, ideological battle between the President (assuming his advisors speak for him) and the people of the United States. DOES HE NOT REALIZE HOW MANY CHILDREN ARE ON FOOD STAMPS in this country because THEIR PARENTS HAVE NO WORK nor MEDICAL CARE.

Don't even get me going on Arne Duncan, and the Texas School Board textbook standards.

Desperate economic times make people behave in less than idealist ways.... my God, Turkana, do you check out what people are selling on Craig's list to survive ?  Their bodies.  

Or, as my spouse says, since "the system" is working for 70 to 80% of the people, those people with jobs, food, and shelter think that's enough and don't worry about the others.  

I don't know what is going to happen. I just don't like being told that if I expected anything, I had to be extorted into supporting it happening during the 2nd term second half, in 2014 to 2016.

Not acceptable.

Yeah, life is short. I get that part.  


[ Parent ]
but even all you said (4.00 / 2)
is about issues. the facts about how people are living, why the policies aren't working for them, and who the policies ARE working for- all of that is what most matters. you don't need to personalize it beyond showing the facts, including who is pursuing good policies and who isn't.  

the glory, the love, the madness.
[ Parent ]
and then it can be done by a computer program (4.00 / 5)
.... because the personal is political.

I can't breathe or walk down the street without offending people with my very existence here in some subdivisions of wealthy evangi- fundamentalist land.  Facts are irrelevant.  To them. Not what they vote on. It is about faith. You belong, or you do not. End of discussion.

Same with many political consultants.  Either party.

This election is about protecting incumbents no matter what they have done or plan to do.

The party I worked hard to put into office, they said, ha ha, fooled you.

How am I supposed to feel about that party adopting policies of the one we just took out of power ?

I think you underestimate the extent of the antipathy they have towards people like me. With no allies, and hostiles in both parties, I have to redefine allies or risk perishing. I do keep Mike Stark's warning from 2006 in mind- after the election, they really don't want to hear another word.    They just keep on making rules up to screw with us and then blame us.  Fine.  Whatever floats their boats.


[ Parent ]
LOL (4.00 / 3)
Sounds like you don't have much experience in local politics.  Mendacious manipulation, ad hominems, lies fake smiles while slipping the knife in your back, those are the introductory course, it goes downhill from there.  The nastier, the more below the belt, the more likely a real op will use it.  Over thirty years of experience speaking here, I know how the game is played entirely too well.  That's one of the biggest reasons I've returned to the revolutionary radicalism of my youth.  I was right, these people will not, cannot, permit reform within the system because it will threaten their petty privileges and rake-offs, and they will destroy anyone and anything that tries to do so.

"We who have been nothing shall be all.  This is the final struggle."  ~E. Pottier
[ Parent ]
I think that guy was genuinely searching for answers (4.00 / 4)
and is genuinely loyal to Obama. He explained pretty clearly that he was opposed to the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, but my take on him was that we was blinded by his loyalty, and had a serious problem reconciling his obviously dissonant political beliefs. In other words, I saw that guy as someone who was really searching, and likely not an operative. But maybe I'm naive.  
[ Parent ]
Well, that may be, but (4.00 / 7)
his last comment basically boiled down to "Give him more time!"
[ Parent ]
yes, which is bullshit, I agree (4.00 / 7)

[ Parent ]
I don't go to (4.00 / 4)
Kos much anymore, so I am unfamiliar with the background, however, the way in which he basically tried to spin an emotional gut response from an arguement of facts and then align that emotion with a statement based upon a logical fallacy, IMHO, takes a bit of skill. So indeed, it could very well be an operative or a tool of an operative that has learned the art of spin.

Perhaps it is a universal truth that the loss of liberty at home is to be charged to provisions against danger, real or pretended from abroad. ~J. Madison
[ Parent ]
Read His/Her Diary (4.00 / 4)
Sounds like some one who is starry eyed over Obama, hopefully they will wise up at some point.

I'll be scared later, right now I'm too mad--Bugs Bunny
[ Parent ]
Well, he totally ignored (4.00 / 4)
my first policy based response to him
[ Parent ]
This is all prelude (4.00 / 18)
Just as these folks have chased so many off of Dkos, if we do not challenge them they will just keep chasing people who DO post on the issues off.

Before I start posting on the issues....only to have them attack me personally for doing so....I am going to fight them, and hopefully win in the fight to establish some standards there.

We wrote a diary about that recently, in case you missed it, lol.

And apparently we spoke for quite a few people there who agree.

Because the stopped even TRYING to refute people on the issues.

They just attacked ....using rovian tactics instead.

But do not despair, lol....the beginning of the transition to positive part of all of this is coming up very soon...in like....an hour or so!

Reality is the result of war between two rival groups of programmers,

so....Roar Louder!!!

[ Parent ]
but they can't chase you off (4.00 / 13)
that's up to you. and you don't have to react to their personal attacks- just keep reminding them that if they are capable of discussing issues, you're willing; and if they're not, then they reveal themselves. it's not your problem.

the glory, the love, the madness.
[ Parent ]
LOL yes it is (4.00 / 15)
YMMV but when I see the dishonest shot they pull, I feel compelled to respond.

They are NOT revealed if you don't fight them, I offer as evidence that they are still there after revealing themselves for a year now. And they are still taken seriously.

They must be revealed.

Now that HCR is over this is the time to reveal them, before the next vital issue comes up and they pull the same shit.

They have shut down to many voices to ignore them.

But I respect the approach you are taking, we need all the approaches we can get.

Yours suits your nature, mine suits mine.


Reality is the result of war between two rival groups of programmers,

so....Roar Louder!!!

[ Parent ]
They can't? (4.00 / 22)
Guess it depends upon how you define "chase off."

Take Valtin, for example.  Valtin fears no one.

One of the best writers on the issue of torture, brilliant essays.

Doesn't post much at Daily Kos any more.

Took only one poster in this instance to make it not worth his while to post at Daily Kos.

He wasn't terrorized or humiliated.  He just had only so much time to spend and wasn't going to waste it at a place where half of the comments were consistently spammed by folks who didn't want the conversation on torture to take place.

mcjoan got worn down by the relentless attacks against her -- I saw her writing actually change during that time period.  I saw her quote and link to one of her most abusive critics, for no reason at all other than he just wore her down and his little clique helped that process along.

There should never have been any link to that troll - and troll he was and is.  There was absolutely no reason for it whatsoever.  No one fought back against him ... except me and a very few others.

So it all depends on how you define "chased off."

[ Parent ]
can you link (4.00 / 2)
to what drove valtin away?  

the glory, the love, the madness.
[ Parent ]
In his last diary posted March 17 (4.00 / 9)
there were a lot of ugly comments like this and this.  They were really nasty and pretty much dominated the thread for about a full have hour after the diary was posted.  He may come back at some point but I wouldn't blame him if he doesn't.

Here is the link to the diary.

[ Parent ]
*half hour* (4.00 / 4)
and thinking back on it, the Obamatrons pretty much dominated the discussion, period.  It was sad to watch it unfold.
[ Parent ]
budhy is right, turkana (4.00 / 6)
he was accused of plagiarism tonight.  that kind of stuff can't be left to stand.  and had he handled it differently, the person making the accusation and the vitriol behind it would not have been exposed.

"We all live in a house on fire, no fire department to call; no way out, just the upstairs window to look out of while the fire burns the house down with us trapped, locked in it."  -Tennessee Williams
[ Parent ]
link? (4.00 / 3)


the glory, the love, the madness.
[ Parent ]
Well it IS Christin (4.00 / 6)
christin

But she's been getting a lot of uprates lately from people that like who she spits at.


aka burned

[ Parent ]
Christin (4.00 / 4)
of the clammyc diary hijack.  

"By the pricking of my thumb, something wicked this way comes.", Wm. Shakespeare, "Macbeth"
[ Parent ]
and here is the companion link (4.00 / 6)
because it was going on in two distinct thread trails...

I just about peed myself laughing at the end there, in that one that heather posted above.

here is the origin of it all. (in the same diary but way upstream, includes a cameo from MB).

Excellent demonstration of how a smear is born.

The only reason this one didnt take flight is b/c it was nipped in the bud.  

"When you realize how perfect everything is you will tilt your head back and laugh at the sky" Buddha

[ Parent ]
Two Questions: (4.00 / 6)
Are you going to go for 3000 comments?

Are you ready to stay up all night ?

Perhaps it is a universal truth that the loss of liberty at home is to be charged to provisions against danger, real or pretended from abroad. ~J. Madison

[ Parent ]
yup! (4.00 / 8)


Reality is the result of war between two rival groups of programmers,

so....Roar Louder!!!

[ Parent ]
They are at the point now (4.00 / 9)
that the Bush 26 percenters were when they could no longer logically support Bush...

The highest proportion of believers were, and still are, Fox News viewers. [...] But why would anyone accept it? Only by suspension of all critical faculties, curiosity about American society, the wider world and indeed, one's information provider. I would also add indifference to the truth...

[ Parent ]
Yes. Sometimes one must stand up and (4.00 / 7)
sometimes one must ignore the bullshit.  

The trick is in not staying there when the fight is over.

There are many who live for flame wars.  Indeed, I suspect some blog while intoxicated.  The vile stuff that these few spew amazes me.

But one loses if one cuts sucked into their games and forgets issues and politics.  

[ Parent ]
They are at it again. (4.00 / 6)
Somebody posted a plea for bwd to return, and the comments almost immediately turned into a hate fest for her critics.  The place has lost its mind.  I find myself cancelling a comment in middle thought because, well, who gives a fuck.  I can't tell you the last time I read something new and interesting on that site.   Meta, template diaries, and interminable nastiness.   The place wears me out.    Today I found thisin Quick Hits at OL.  It is interesting in both size and scope.  Apparently, the tent is too big and most people get cranky when they get old.   LOL  

Markos had a choice.  He made it.  Life is too short to waste on dailykos.   I prefer to spend my time looking for interesting insights and information shared by people who aren't cannibalistic.  

[ Parent ]
i actually read a substantive discussion (4.00 / 4)
in mb's diary on kissinger and learned some things.  not going near bwd diaries unless someone can give me a good reason too.  i am also about to dive back into the school semester so probably won't have time anyway.

"We all live in a house on fire, no fire department to call; no way out, just the upstairs window to look out of while the fire burns the house down with us trapped, locked in it."  -Tennessee Williams
[ Parent ]
Agree, the meta is a waste of time (4.00 / 5)
Fight on the issues.  
Good advice (4.00 / 12)
The name calling is easy to ignore if one has the willpower. What is more difficult is the subtle attack: the smear the messenger, the red herring, the straw man, etc.
my very short diary, last night (4.00 / 16)
simple facts, clear links. and still the knives come out. people not arguing the facts, but just lobbing the usual personal turd bombs. they are what they are.

the glory, the love, the madness.
[ Parent ]
I went into that diary last night. and was really saddened. (4.00 / 4)
Looks like there are some stupid Democrats after all.  a pity -- I thought the GOP had the lock on idiocy.  Oh well.

"Fighting Fascism is Always Cool." -- Amsterdam Weekly, volume three, issue 18

(-8.50, -7.23)
[ Parent ]
Well said, Turkana... (4.00 / 11)

Next to impossible (4.00 / 11)
to argue with people not based in reality, generationally misinformed on top of being deliberately manipulated on a daily basis via electronic media designed with the Strategic Communications Laboratories mindset.

Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what your country can do to you.
it quickly becomes clear (4.00 / 8)
that some are interested in and capable of arguing issues. it quickly becomes clear that some aren't. the latter resort to personal attacks.  

the glory, the love, the madness.
[ Parent ]
Or Trivial Blather (4.00 / 6)
the latter resort to personal attacks

Earlier today I read your latest diary over there and so many of the comments were just boring blah about next to nothing.

People who feel positively challenged by a strong argument or question seem to be in diminishing supply over there.

I'll be scared later, right now I'm too mad--Bugs Bunny

[ Parent ]
The height of rudenesss... (4.00 / 5)
I will read a perfectly wonderful diary that has been painstakingly researched, linked, and written.  The first whole batch of comments don't even bother to respond to the diary and proceed to go off topic with inanities and stay there.  "Witty repertoire"  you might say, but I won't.  
[ Parent ]
Fuckin' eh! (4.00 / 5)
.

Most of those that engage in that BS wouldn't know an anti-federalist from a federalist.

(and it's real simple to not point an accusatory finger: just change it to passive voice and add a probability adjective. Notice the difference, So and so wouldn't know an anti-federalist from a federalist. i.e. taken as, you are stupid.)

Perhaps it is a universal truth that the loss of liberty at home is to be charged to provisions against danger, real or pretended from abroad. ~J. Madison

How did that work out for clammy? (4.00 / 14)


"I like irony except I find that if you just toss your clothes in the dryer for a few minutes you hardly ever have to use it."- ek hornbeck
his diaries (4.00 / 7)
were on the rec list all day. he had plenty of support. you have to learn to ignore the worst of them. saves time and energy and brain cells.

the glory, the love, the madness.
[ Parent ]
heh (4.00 / 10)
In 1999 I decided to ignore Bush.


Reality is the result of war between two rival groups of programmers,

so....Roar Louder!!!

[ Parent ]
heh (4.00 / 5)
bush had power these little people don't.

the glory, the love, the madness.
[ Parent ]
It is POSSIBLE (4.00 / 8)
That he wouldn't have had that power if people hadn't ignored him.

To be purposely vague so as not to invoke a certain law of the internet....you never know what ignoring er, um, burgeoning seemingly banal phenomenon can lead to.

Hyperbole?

Yup.

You know me, lol.


Reality is the result of war between two rival groups of programmers,

so....Roar Louder!!!

[ Parent ]
people didn't ignore him (4.00 / 2)
the media ran interference for him. but even then- would we have been fighting on the facts, or wasting time on the meta?

the glory, the love, the madness.
[ Parent ]
They have plenty of power. (4.00 / 8)
Perhaps you just don't see it.  They have organizing power and the power to obfuscate issues.  And they do it by creating distractive shells (coffee party, anyone?), and ensuring that good willed people on the left can't counter-assemble, by pre-empting and making unrealistic that which could be realistic, by sabotage, by wagon circling, by setting the ground floor of debate.

Tommyknockers, Tommyknockers, knocking at the door
[ Parent ]
they don't scare me (4.00 / 4)
they aren't that big and they aren't that powerful.

the glory, the love, the madness.
[ Parent ]
True, (4.00 / 5)
But they are that loud.

Pass the earplugs, would ya?  There's a dear....

"Fighting Fascism is Always Cool." -- Amsterdam Weekly, volume three, issue 18

(-8.50, -7.23)

[ Parent ]
Then, teach me. You talk. I listen. (4.00 / 2)
Because, honestly, I don't know how the noise can be broken through.  I think it's impossible.  I think the Obamabots have created a big white noise, from which or to which, without some kind of critical mass, breaking through is difficult.  If not totally impossible.

You are needed HERE.  

Tommyknockers, Tommyknockers, knocking at the door

[ Parent ]
but they do (4.00 / 5)
they are the loyalists who will be left standing when this administration and the DLC end of the party have purged the rest of the left as the extreme and blocked their access in the debate. So they have the power to keep the dialog off the real issues and the only voices that are given credence are called left of the left or extremists. Their power is in a way a reverse power they are assisting in the neutering of the progressives and two leg better campaign that is ratcheting up fear, misinformation and filling the media with the new gatekeepers.

Hopefully it won't be enough to stop rising populism that can see that this is the same crap we just voted out. How this will play out looks to me to be not a good deal for either the party or the people. The pols don't care they like a low vote and low information it keeps the vote closer and keeps the demands of the voters at a minimum. they can then govern in perpetual campaign mode pitting the idiots from both sides against each other and defines political 'reality' as a fictitious ground where we all lose.      

[ Parent ]
Yup. (4.00 / 6)
How about nyceve?

Still just a river Turk?

"I like irony except I find that if you just toss your clothes in the dryer for a few minutes you hardly ever have to use it."- ek hornbeck

[ Parent ]
nyceve Dairy: Comments Were Hi-Jacked (4.00 / 4)
I don't even know if that's the right word.

Top of the rec list, but when I scroll through comments it is filled with Apologists' lame critiques of nyceve or anyone who thinks the HCR bill is crap.

By flooding comments with shallow jabs the effect is to numb the reader from looking at the actual issues nyceve is articulating.

Not exactly Rovian tactics but filling the air with clutter-chaff is effective at some level.



I'll be scared later, right now I'm too mad--Bugs Bunny

[ Parent ]
She Also Writes Diaries .. (4.00 / 2)
...as well as running a dairy, or so I'm told. (;-P

I'll be scared later, right now I'm too mad--Bugs Bunny
[ Parent ]
top of the rec list, ek (4.00 / 3)
probably will be, all day. how many people wade through 1000+ comments? probably not many. but how many will read the diary and watch frontline?

the glory, the love, the madness.
[ Parent ]
more please (4.00 / 3)
darnit..... just shot my long, well thought out reply into the blast-o-sphere by mistake. lol (Ill try to re-compose it in a few, meanwhile...)

more of this please, from all of you BlogStars, it would go along way in effecting a positive shift.

"When you realize how perfect everything is you will tilt your head back and laugh at the sky" Buddha

[ Parent ]
Ok, so, you're complaining about the meta there, by (4.00 / 14)
bringing the meta about meta, over here?  You have to admit, it has its humorous, recursive aspects.

I agree, pretty much -- which is why I don't post there anymore -- or rather, if I say anything there, it's once in a blue moon.  And I've stated my reasons, here, for why I don't waste much time over there.

But, if you mean what you are saying here, why not come over to the Dark Side?

I understand the reasons for many people or everyone doing it (that is, attacking Daily Kos from elsewhere), so perhaps it is a good idea to bring them out in the open.  Daily Kos may be deteriorating, but it's the liberal mega-blog, so all of us feel sorta heartsick at the entire site being turned into a festering pile of Republican smelling personality based crap.  It's the blog to which everyone goes, at first, so we feel they should have fairer standards for all, as opposed, to, say, sites without much following, or much smaller sites, that can be more special interest and selective.  

If they are the premiere site for Democrats, or want to act like it, well, then, they should be like it, and not let Republican lite Democrats walk all over everybody, like they do.  Yeah.  I get it.

I left because of it, because making noise about it elsewhere, while not trying to really push back against it there (with all the accompanying crap), sort of had a stench about it that I didn't really want.

Tommyknockers, Tommyknockers, knocking at the door

the front page (4.00 / 9)
is mostly superb. and some front pagers get shat on by the same people that shit on us. remember, the right side flame throwers only have as much power as we give them.

the glory, the love, the madness.
[ Parent ]
Well, the problem is, to me, that of double standards. (4.00 / 7)
You posted a diatribe about Daily Kos here.  Budhy front paged it.

That wouldn't go over well, were Daily Kos to have mounted an attack on Docudharma, for whatever reasons, and had it on the front page there.

Does Docudharma feel entitled to get all medieval on Daily Kos' ass, without feeling it should be subject to the same general attacks.  Why should they not feel entitled to attack Docudharma from stem to stern from over there, yes, even on the front page, provided they chose to make it about "meta" and "issues" and not about any one poster?

We get very close to the line here, and occasionally boil over, by complaining about Daily Kos meta while mounting meta based attacks here.  It makes me itch in my private places, a little.

I'm trying to find some intellectual coherency in going after Daily Kos from over here.  There are two reasons, one is that we want the site over there to change -- and we want it to change, because, why?  Maybe the fact that they are so big gives them a reason to need to be better than they are.

Maybe, also, it's the site mission.  Making it all about Democrats leads to cheating and lying, because that kind of site mission has no intellectual honesty.  Such a mission is fundamentally unprincipled.

Tommyknockers, Tommyknockers, knocking at the door

[ Parent ]
but again (4.00 / 7)
don't confuse the front pagers with the turd bombers. the people you're talking about are a small but noisy faction. most people don't care about them, or about us, or about any factional or personal battles.

the site purpose is more and better dems, and there's clearly been a push on the front page towards the better dems, rather than just more. if we want better dems, we have to work for them, and that also includes focusing on the issues, and on where obama and the dems are right on the issues, and where they are wrong.

we will get flamed for focusing on the issues. but they win when we focus on them rather than the issues. they don't want us to focus on the issues, because their arguments are too hollow. but some of them are listening, on the issues. and even more importantly, the vast majority of site readers only care about the issues. and we're not going to reach them by talking about things other than the issues.

the glory, the love, the madness.

[ Parent ]
I think I understand your point of view; and if you're you, I might even not (4.00 / 6)
take any issue with it at all.

But, ok, well, you're not the same as I.  better democrats is not an "issue" at all.  It's an unquestioned imperative if you are on Daily Kos.  One I do not share.  The problem is the imperative functions as an obscurant to the "issues".

For example, if you want to talk about how to get superior health care in this country, and you have the imperative of "more and better democrats" it doesn't serve your imperative to acknowledge that you cannot speak honestly about the issue while at the same time promoting the same solution to a variety of different problems, over and over and over again.

And, to be willfully pedantic, that's the problem:

You have a country with a variety of diseases, or maladies.  In each case, the medicine being prescribed is the same.

That's not honest and aboveboard discussion of "issues" and what to do about them.  It's political hackery.  Now, it could be true that for this thing or that, you could make a very honest debate, full of intellectual coherency, about how for this one thing or that, "More and Better Democrats" is the way to solve that particular issue?

But for everything?  While placing, off limits, the idea that maybe in this context or that, no matter how many Democrats you elect, you're still going to wind up dealing with the same shit?

There is where I have a problem.  I have a problem because, no matter how many Democrats you elect, and no matter how "good" they are, they aren't going to willfully open up the process to third parties.  They aren't going to willfully accept the bonds of very strict campaign finance reform that ties their own hands.

So, my question would be, within the acceptable boundaries of Daily Kos debate, is it even possible to have an honest debate about ALL issues?  I would say not.  The mission makes it impossible, while following their rules.

Tommyknockers, Tommyknockers, knocking at the door

[ Parent ]
By the way, being me, I would attack the Democrats EVERY DAY. (4.00 / 7)
VICIOUSLY.

Because they need it.  Because they have been sliding into being mild Republicans (and sometimes, not so mild), for decades.

My political imperative is exactly the opposite of Daily Kos'.  And it's taken as being "anti-Democratic" and I don't even care to debate it.  That is, whether it is or it isn't.  You see, I just don't fucking care.  At all.  How it's taken, I mean.  The fact that it won't be countenanced and won't be addressed is a deep systemic fault.

The Democrats need to be viciously attacked every day.  By liberals.  And this is also an "issue based attack" and needs be brought out into the open.

A partisan blog that openly refuses to say certain things in order to not look into the dark heart of the Democratic mission and soul is worthless.  It is to be a Republican in thought process.

And this is WHY they're becoming so Republican-lite.  It's because of Republican type philosophies that refuse to even countenance the idea that, why yes, they may be wrong, or shortsighted, or downright evil on this or that.

People who refuse to do that BECOME Republicans.  Because not being willing to be introspective is what Republicanism is about (among other things).

Tommyknockers, Tommyknockers, knocking at the door

[ Parent ]
Yes, that's an important point, in a nutshell. (4.00 / 5)
Because not being willing to be introspective is what Republicanism is about (among other things).

[ Parent ]
it's not only possible (4.00 / 5)
it happens all the time. those of us that were criticizing both the substance and the process of the health care meltdown did get heard, did get on the rec list, did have a strong following. and, of course, we got shat on a lot. some people made substantive critiques, and many didn't. but we still got heard.

the glory, the love, the madness.
[ Parent ]
But "you" failed. (4.00 / 4)
I'm no longer interested in failure.  And I'm not saying this to browbeat you, or the people who, in all well meaning and desire for a better outcome, as ordinary Americans do.  In the end, as per my thoughts and ideas about the way things work, your good ideas, action items and prescriptions, in the end, didn't do the job they needed to do.  Maybe you can say that you ameliorated a worse outcome, but I don't really care about that, or worry about it.  I care about promised results leading to desired conclusions.  I may have a myopic view, but I'm an engineer, after all.  I analyze failure and take conclusions from it.  And my addition to your voice would have made no difference.  

But here's the thing.  I care, but don't think I can be as engaged as some of you think you can be.  Mayhap I'm weaker.  Or maybe I just don't care as much.  Or maybe I think a hurdle that is just too big is faulty and wrong somehow.  That there has to be a better way.

In any event, I fancy I'm closer to the average American in that regard, at least.  If you don't get results, I'm likely to tune out.  Especially to the effect my admittedly cynical predictions came true in every iota -- every jot and tittle.  You would fail, at getting every American a decent shot at decent health care sans medical bankruptcy.  I knew it.  And you didn't disappoint my prognostication with success.

Calling your congressman does nothing.  You who wanted a better outcome on health care proved it.  You proved it by trying, and failing.

Yeah, I believe you -- you wanted a better outcome.  But you didn't get it.  Your tactics, failed.  Yet, do you want a better, more effective tactic?  What is the better tactic?  

Tommyknockers, Tommyknockers, knocking at the door

[ Parent ]
If you want tactics that you advocate to work, you have to succeed. (4.00 / 4)
Not in the intermediate goal, but in the final goal.  If you want people to believe you can succeed, the intermediate goals cannot take precedence over the final goals.  Things you or the Democrats can spin into success may work.  For a while.  For a time.  But not in the long run.

If I am making any point here, it is this.  The Democrats have had a failure basis for too long.  You advocate for more and better Democrats.  But what have the Democrats brought me, and people like me, but noble failure, for decades and generations?

And, you are taking from me -- my tax dollars and my good will.  For failure.  Failure just isn't good enough anymore.  

I am willing to pay taxes.  I have a job.  Make $40 K a year.  No great shakes.  But I'm willing to pay a little extra taxes so that the homeless have a place to stay.  A fire to sit at.  A warm TV at night.  So to speak.

But you -- you Democrats.  You aren't making it easy for me.  Every solution you make, makes for greater taxes, on the ones who produce, for no benefit for us and scant little benefit for THEM.

I always tend to be the bleeding edge -- I always tend to be the FIRST to say a thing.  But far from the last.

You Democrats -- you offered to stick it to the rich, FIRST.  But you didn't.  You continue their tax breaks, their multimillion dollar bonuses.  For -- what.  For lack of success?

I don't really fancy myself a Democrat anymore.  Because me and mine, Democrats stick it to- every time.  While ignoring and empowering those who really need it stuck to.  I am a productive, middle aged GLBT man.  I make things worth millions of dollars to corporations for a pittance.  And yet, you want to make my life harder?  'cause, why?  For non-success?  And you can't even do things that don't cost money, like giving me my dignity back.

If that's what Democrats are about -- if that is the apologia, political pragmatism that results in terminal non-success, then, uh, in the completely impersonal sense, go away.  You don't believe what you all say you believe, you don't give a hand to those you say you will give a hand, and you come to me with the bill.  For your luxurious enablement of the corporations and the wealthy.

Tommyknockers, Tommyknockers, knocking at the door

[ Parent ]
we have to retake the democratic party (4.00 / 1)
our two party system is too entrenched for any alternative. we don't have a parliamentary system. we can't retake anything if no one will hear us.  

the glory, the love, the madness.
[ Parent ]
And what happens (4.00 / 1)
when the Democratic Party is the only party that is left?

Because, that's where we are, effectively, right now.  And I don't even require you to believe me or agree with me.

The Democratic Party IS the only party that is left.  The Republican Party is a corpse that doesn't die only on the sufferance and to the political benefit of the Democrats.

We are already here.  You may have thought it would take twenty or thirty years .. but the people (I hope, by now) on Docudharma, realize, we already have a one party system, and the supposed second party is just an afterthought, a backstop and used to the greater political benefit of the Democrats.  If they wished, the Democrats could destroy the Republicans with a flick of a thought.  But they don't.  Because they are useful.

There is no true second party.  Oh, yes, the Republicans, in name, exist.  But there isn't a multiparty system.  You need a better alternative.  Because, what is being proposed is an effective one party dictatorship, whether the Democrats or "Republicans" rule.

One party rule is dictatorship.  Not an answer.  

Tommyknockers, Tommyknockers, knocking at the door

[ Parent ]
we all failed (4.00 / 1)
as i said, we aren't there yet. the power of the tubes is still developing. but we have some congresscritters and some in the media listening. they certainly don't care about the meta. but we're beginning to be heard. ten years ago, eve and slink wouldn't have had any vehicle at all. we have to keep moving the process forward, and we do that on the issues.

the glory, the love, the madness.
[ Parent ]
Let me put it a different way: WE failed. WE can't fail. (4.00 / 2)
Not continually.  Not again.  And the wrong method is being used.  Faith is being destroyed.  Lives are being destroyed.  It's not about this vehicle.  There are no methods, certainly not internet based or blogospheric, that will work with the current political thought process.

Please try to understand what I mean here.  Don't come to me talking about blog meta; it will not suffice; it doesn't even begin to suffice.  Lives are being talked about here.  What are lives, and the future, compared to the current machinations?  Blogs do not suffice.  None of this, suffices.  They in the Congress think they suffice.  They do not.  We have to come at them with something more powerful.  You are constrained.  Just as I am.  But we have to transcend ourselves.

If we do not, the pronoun doesn't matter.  We will be, you will be, I will be, we will all be, swept away.

What I am starting to understand is, politics doesn't even suffice.

And it's not about the media.  It certainly isn't about META.  You, we, none of us are being heard.  This is the primacy of the complaint, Daily Kos has reached its limit, and whether or not any that come after it expands, the expansion of the machine-like political thought process is complete.  And what I am trying to say by that is, the bottom of the barrel has been scraped.  You have what you will get, by this means, and by this method.

The culture is not absorbing the political message.  This failure could have been comforted, it could have been assuaged, but it has not been.  It was not.  It cannot and will not be.

Think to yourself.  Opposed to whether anyone listens to you, do you really care?  Do I?  Is getting on the rec list on Daily Kos comparable to thousands and millions of people who will live and die without the solutions that have been denied?  More importantly, without change, have you, or I, or we, actually been HEARD?

We have not.  

Maybe you think I'm a cheese eating surrender monkey, but I can tell when something isn't working.  When it isn't, doesn't, and can't work.  When it's been wholly subverted.  And the purely political nature of the machinations in trying to assure in all good faith that solutions would be found has failed.

It could have worked.  At least, I think so.  But the political solutions have been betrayed.  All of them.

It's time to go beyond pure politics.

Tommyknockers, Tommyknockers, knocking at the door

[ Parent ]
I dunno, Andy, (4.00 / 6)
where we really do all that much "complaining about Daily Kos meta" (we strive NOT to do that) and I have not seen ever on DD "mounting meta based attacks here" except if/when buhdy cross-posts here something that he has launched over there, simultaneously.

But I wanna give you a pony anyway. :-)

Photobucket

"When you realize how perfect everything is you will tilt your head back and laugh at the sky" Buddha

[ Parent ]
LOL .. maybe. I'm trying to see it from "their" side, Devil's Advocate style. (4.00 / 4)
It's what I do.

Tommyknockers, Tommyknockers, knocking at the door
[ Parent ]
The front page is programmed and disconnected. (4.00 / 3)
It reminds me of built in lawn sprinklers running in the rain.  Whatever passion or heart dailykos use to have is gone.   The front page feels perfunctory and disassociated, and the diaries are inflammatory.  

I don't understand why the abusive behavior is tolerated, particularly if they abuse the front pagers as well.  Again, we're not talking disagreement with the issues or the facts, we are talking about incessant harping.

Why do you keep going there, if you don't mind me asking.  

[ Parent ]
i strongly disagree with that (4.00 / 1)
i think the front page has gotten stronger, overall. there are a few that boggle my mind, now and then, but i agree with and learn from many of the front pagers, all the time.

the glory, the love, the madness.
[ Parent ]
The FP are in a bind (4.00 / 3)
At this point they have to try to make lemonade out of plastic fruit.  And they know from past experience that as the election gets closer and the ponies do not materialize things are only going to get shriller.
[ Parent ]
Shrill's Fine.... (4.00 / 2)
...as long as it's Krugman.

things are only going to get shriller.


I'll be scared later, right now I'm too mad--Bugs Bunny
[ Parent ]
R'lyeh pthagn (nt) (4.00 / 4)

[ Parent ]
Old Castro- (4.00 / 4)
At the proper time, the secret priests would take great Cthulhu from his tomb to revive His subjects and resume His rule of earth.

Then mankind would have become as the Great Old Ones; free and wild and beyond good and evil, with laws and morals thrown aside and all men shouting and killing and revelling in joy.

Then the liberated Old Ones would teach them new ways to shout and kill and revel and enjoy themselves, and all the earth would flame with a holocaust of ecstasy and freedom.

"Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn"- In his house at R'lyeh dead Cthulhu waits dreaming.

That is not dead which can eternal lie.  And with strange aeons even death may die.


"I like irony except I find that if you just toss your clothes in the dryer for a few minutes you hardly ever have to use it."- ek hornbeck

[ Parent ]
Please Be Direct...Don't Mince Your Words (4.00 / 8)
 (;-)

the entire site being turned into a festering pile of Republican smelling personality based crap.


I'll be scared later, right now I'm too mad--Bugs Bunny
[ Parent ]
Huh? (4.00 / 14)
I'm just speaking for myself here.  Do you honestly think I'd bother with this battle if it were just about me and my personal fight at DKos?  Has anything in my blogging record ever pointed in that direction?

Do you think yourself immune from the kind of politics of personal destruction that was outlined in the standards diary?

You are very careful not to cross that line in your writing.

Do you ever wonder why?

And even then, you are still attacked.

i'm trying to engage (4.00 / 7)
with those capable of engaging. there is nothing i can do about those that favor personal invective over substance. other than to ignore them. we win on the issues and the facts, and i'm trying to focus on those. if people respond in other ways, that's their problem, not mine.

the glory, the love, the madness.
[ Parent ]
Nope. (4.00 / 17)
We do NOT win on the issues because the politics of personal destruction do not allow that conversation to take place.

I could give you many examples, but let's take the so-called health care "debate."

And I'll use nyceve as an example.

Every time she put up a diary where there was some action called for she was endlessly spammed.

Action did not take place in any meaningful way.

She was not allowed to debate on the merits, she was too busy dealing with a very few people who used character attack to successfully derail any real debate.

It doesn't take that many people, Turkana.

If it turns out that the admins. and community at Daily Kos aren't interested in fighting this very effective political tactic, then I have three choices -- to get myself banned in a spectacular flameout (not really my style), accept second-class "citizenship" at Daily Kos, or leave.

I could write a diary tomorrow and get on the rec list.  Popularity is not the issue here.

Anyway, I'll fight, thank you very much.  As I said, I wouldn't do this for petty personal reasons, and you ought to know that about me after all these years.

Go ahead, Turk, try and write an action diary that goes against the grain of the DLC hardliners.  Tell me then how easy it is to ignore these folks.

[ Parent ]
Bingo (4.00 / 12)
Every time she put up a diary where there was some action called for she was endlessly spammed.

Action did not take place in any meaningful way.

She was not allowed to debate on the merits, she was too busy dealing with a very few people who used character attack to successfully derail any real debate.



Reality is the result of war between two rival groups of programmers,

so....Roar Louder!!!

[ Parent ]
but (4.00 / 5)
eve and slink DID succeed in getting floods of calls and emails sent to congress. their diaries were constantly on the rec list.

particularly with the new guidelines, the more we don't even bother responding to the character attacks and focus on the issues, instead, the more we make clear who is right on the issues, by proving the contrast in approach. and you know very well that i get turd bombed, all the time. read the comments to my current diary. it's short, dispassionate, and well-sourced, and still they bring the shrill smears. but the diary got a lot of notice, and a lot of people are reading it.  

the glory, the love, the madness.

[ Parent ]
That is not the point. (4.00 / 10)
They were prevented from political effectiveness.

They got a much smaller percentage of calls than they would have without the political attacks.

And the political attacks grew the groups of people who would henceforth call on the OFA banks instead, further cancelling out any gains from nyceve and slinkerwink.

I'm not speaking of nasty comments that you can ignore.  I've done plenty of ignoring, some of it at MB's request.  All it did was make the attacks intensify.

I'm speaking of the deliberate political tactic of shutting down any real debate with personal or character attacks.  It works.  We've seen for eight years how well it works.

Before Obama got elected, we could have all the pie fights in the world, but there was no need to have these kinds of political tactics as a regular feature at Daily Kos.

But now there is power to be had.

Your diary was fine, but it was no threat to these folks, none at all.  As I said, try and write something that is directly in opposition to the DLC/OFA talking points, not disagreeing, but in direct opposition, Turk.  See what happens.  See the difference.

There will be other legislation coming up, and the same thing is going to happen unless we do something about it

[ Parent ]
i again disagree (4.00 / 2)
i think they had an impact. overall, the tubes aren't there, yet, but we're getting there.

and i wouldn't waste time reading actual talking points, so i wouldn't write something just to counter them; but judging from some reactions, i must be doing something right...

the glory, the love, the madness.

[ Parent ]
This is an obstacle ... (4.00 / 6)
... that is not going to go away by ignoring it.

I call it the see-saw ... one day the DLC loyalists are all over the rec list, the next day the DFH side is (am crudely using simplistic labels here).

And that means the OFA/DLC loyalists always win.

All they have to do is keep a real consensus from forming.  They don't really need to get on the rec list per se, all they need is to disrupt any momentum in terms of the site coalescing in favor of pursuing and acting on any issue that would go against what the OFA/DLC wants.

So you write a diary and that persuades folks for the moment.

And then they come in and confuse the issue as well as use tactics of personal attack that makes folks not want to comment or get involved.

They win.

Each and every time.

Which means there is no even playing field at this time, no matter how often folks rec a good diary or diarist or are persuaded for the moment.

[ Parent ]
no one (4.00 / 1)
is saying ignore it. i am saying there is a different way to fight it. call them to discuss the issues and facts. ask them why they don't. if they flat out lie, link to the truth. but don't attack them personally. by showing that they lie and smear, and that they can't argue facts, you don't need to say anything about them, personally. people will draw their own conclusions.

the glory, the love, the madness.
[ Parent ]
lol (4.00 / 8)
No, Turk, people will indeed draw their own conclusions, but those conclusions are not what you think they'd be.

They'll draw the conclusion that they had better not get involved in this nastiness.

I NEVER ATTACK PERSONALLY.

I defend.

We saw over 8 years of Dems not defending themselves or caving at the last minute.

The tactics being used are Segretti/Atwater/Rove tactics, regardless of party.

You cannot fight this kind of political strategy by calling upon them to "discuss the issue."  They will not discuss the issue but will obfuscate and divert with personal attack.

And it works.  Each and every time.

No matter how you engage with them, engaging in and of itself gives them the win.  Because then even the folks on your side get all outraged at the nasty attacks going on and the thread grows and grows ... away from your issue.

Unless you point it out forcefully and expose the tactic for what it is.  Which buhdy has done with the diary, which I have done in my own discourse -- and which is why I am so often attacked, racism being only one vehicle of attack, made out of whole cloth, yet extremely effective.

What you're suggesting is a Harry Reid strategy that has been shown never to work.

But in this case it's not caving to the Republicans but to the Dem party hardliners who wish to control the message -- especially from blogs like Daily Kos.

[ Parent ]
hEllo... (4.00 / 8)
bingo, NPK.

They'll draw the conclusion that they had better not get involved in this nastiness.

moi.

"When you realize how perfect everything is you will tilt your head back and laugh at the sky" Buddha

[ Parent ]
Souvent, (4.00 / 5)
moi aussi!
[ Parent ]
P.S.: (4.00 / 5)
One of the ways their tactics work so beautifully when acting upon your suggestion -- posters who truly do wish to discuss the issues become absolutely enchanted with their own eloquence in calling out these aggressive attackers.

They grow more and more eloquent and clever and pat each other on the back over how they have so ably debunked what the disruptive poster has said.

All the while not realizing the distraction has worked and the effectiveness of the diary has just been cut in half.

[ Parent ]
but again (4.00 / 4)
that's the point. only engage the ones that prove they are capable of honest discourse. the liars simply refute their lies- factually. the flame throwers simply ignore. the ones willing to debate the issues, debate.  

the glory, the love, the madness.
[ Parent ]
Ignore. (4.00 / 8)
The ones that prove they are incapable of honest discourse will not be ignored.

They will spam and invariably bring in others to divert the thread.

What you're saying is that you can have a real debate amid all this activity.

You may have a conversation, but no real debate can be had.

Again, look at what happened to nyceve and slinkerwink.  Look at what happened to mcjoan.  Even you have admitted you changed your "style."

This behavior makes folks actually change the way they blog, which changes the dynamic of the debate to favor the side of the DLC/OFA loyalists.

The reason I signed on to the diary buhdy posted was because this is an inherent problem.  It took a lot of deliberation and observation for me to see that and state that as true.

One of the first rules of debate is that if one is proposing change one must show there is an inherent problem in the present system that prevents it from working as intended.  I believe there is an inherent problem in the community moderation system at Daily Kos which prevents any real political debate and forming of consensus on the merits, and I've presented that argument to you.

Buhdy's group diary brought this to a head and we are now seeing both Meteor Blades and the DK community grapple with this argument presented clearly and definitively, with  many in the community either signing on to the diary and/or recommending it.

We'll see how it all works out.  I am making a huge assumption here that the present intention of community moderation at DK is to make sure that the political discussion is allowed to be judged on the merits of the ideas presented, not hardball character attacks from party hardliners to keep us "in line."

If I'm wrong about that, I'll soon find out.

[ Parent ]
And I am not making that assumption, even if I'm (4.00 / 4)
.... uprating your comments.   I am respecting you as a writer and a humanitarian and a poster here at this site.

Let me make that very clear.

This is just a public negotiation on their part.  They noticed that we noticed, and they've sent an emissary before they contemplate nuking everybody.  Admit guilt, post Ten Hail Diaries, don't make comments that upset the Republicans and the DC beltway peeps and be absolved for the campaign cycle.

And the longer they can keep this crap up, the less time we have to write if we chose to attempt to protect our public reputations.  

The longer the delays, the more that they can keep the status quo in the Senate going and preserve the villain du jour rotation.  

[ Parent ]
well Turk (4.00 / 12)
Do what you do best and you will be surprised to discover that some you hadn't expected to be are a lot closer to your viewpoints than you realize. Figure out who those are, and engage with them. Allow yourselves to be surprised. Leave the rest alone. Let them continually prove what they are about. It's their problems, not yours. It's their time, not yours. You don't need to call them out on it, because they prove what they are simply by being what they are. If you rise above, you will draw the contrast by so doing. But what really matters is that your time is better spent. We need you doing what you're capable of doing. Fuck the meta. Help us fight on the issues.  

I used to agree with this, pretty strongly in fact.

And I still do, but.... it's very difficult, for some people, to polish their pearls when they're so busy dodging bullets.

We (I say "we" even though not literally me much) tried that... for this whole past year.

Photobucket

The main thrust, in my opinion, of this recent ...meta... commandeered by buhdy, has not been an effort to actually STOP those folks from being who they are, but rather to highlight it and point the focus and sunlight on it, for others, the bystanders .... to see it for what it is, and make their own judgements.... with perhaps, a little bit more perspective.


"When you realize how perfect everything is you will tilt your head back and laugh at the sky" Buddha

unfortunately (4.00 / 3)
taking them on directly only creates a muddle of dissonance to those not directly involved. it's not the way to reach others. it becomes insular and self-defeating.

the glory, the love, the madness.
[ Parent ]
LOL. If I posted my mind there, I'd just get banned. (4.00 / 6)
There would be no good in it.  I post things that aren't even that popular HERE.  The (admitted superior) Docudharama modus operandi with diaries that post about issues, and unpopular truths is, the people who don't want to really talk about them just DON'T.

It's better, yeah.  And I'm not fearful of being banned here, no.  But there just is no answer.  There's a festering discontinuity in the idea of Democratic superiority to Republicans on social issues that just doesn't bear up to close examination, especially if you are someone, say, like a GLBT'er.

Democrats of the present complain about hate, but they glory in it.  They roll around in it.  They cover themselves in it.  They fearlessly let their representatives in Congress engage in hate about GLBT people, and don't do anything or much of anything to counteract it, except maybe chastising those people rather than ripping them, as they'd rip a Republican.  Oh, this is not just about rhetoric, but it's also about acts which amount to political homophobia.

And when I talk about Democrats I'm talking about the elected variety and the Democratic pushers, not just any ole Democrat.  One that waves the hate doll to get people to vote Democratic.

That is very ugly, but people either want to acknowledge it and move on, but they don't really want to talk about it.

Tommyknockers, Tommyknockers, knocking at the door

Mostly I find that (4.00 / 9)
what they want is response of any kind, so ignoring them is the one thing that drives them batty and makes them make themselves look like fools.
I know metaphor, so I use it (4.00 / 7)
The merits (or demerits) of my particular posting style are certainly debatable in an action-oriented context, as has correctly been pointed out by some on DD.

At this point I'm just doing it when inspired. When I'm not, the quality drops off and no one is persuaded at all.

mbr + dv + woyg

darmok and jalad (4.00 / 5)
at tanagra!

the glory, the love, the madness.
[ Parent ]
Loved that episode nt (4.00 / 1)


Dornoch firth stowps hae lang lugs...
[ Parent ]
You're just picking on my bald Frenchness (4.00 / 3)
Touché. :)

mbr + dv + woyg
[ Parent ]
Goon Squad Out In Force ..... (4.00 / 4)
Current diary brings out the all the examples as to the negative spiral...

http://www.dailykos.com/story/...

I'll be scared later, right now I'm too mad--Bugs Bunny

I got caught (4.00 / 7)
in the insanity just now by your link. It's not a good mind set and it hooks you because you think surely these people will argue this on an issues, moral level or even a legal one but they don't they simply ignore everything revelent and go into defense of Obama mode. It grips me and yet repulses me. I do not believe for one minute that it is possible to have anything other then a meta diary as it all comes back to that no matter what the subject. If all you want to do is fling poo at teabaggers or 'firebaggers' and go gaga over pooties and Obama I guess it's a great place but for any real political or news debate it's a big waste of time and is karmically speaking not so hot either. It has no reality reality is not open for discussion, neither is the constitution or coalitions. Like Darlicks they have been programmed through fear and hope to attack and be good Germans.    
[ Parent ]
Mostly Agree (4.00 / 1)
There were good Germans and the really, really good Germans, like the White Rose.

and be good germans.


I'll be scared later, right now I'm too mad--Bugs Bunny
[ Parent ]
HEH? (4.00 / 3)
not knocking all Germans just the ones who went along and pretended or believed that their government was good no matter what it did including atrocities and trying to be the boss of the world via the excuses always given. The love of authority and persona along with nationalism and exceptional ism is a bad combo. they scare me more then the pols as they enable this fascist shit and call all opposition the enemy of the good. Godwins law whoever he is should include this canard.    
[ Parent ]
Good Chileans...Good Argentines...Good Spainards (4.00 / 1)
Good Italians.....Good Saudis.

Good Germans is not my favorite phrase, plenty of other nationalities have chose to support thugs.

I'll be scared later, right now I'm too mad--Bugs Bunny

[ Parent ]
Your right (4.00 / 2)
thugs are everywhere and since I piss and moan about the evils of nationalism I shouldn't be using this terminology. Instead how about anywhere the people end up defensing and supporting the thugs and start calling it 'good', necessary and inevitable or saying that it's political reality and bleating like the sheep on Manor Farm. They refuse to even see what is going on as it is treasonous to leader and party and besides two legs have always been better.    
[ Parent ]
forgot to say rhat (4.00 / 2)
when the citizens of any nation state get to a point where they condone and cheer lead the very things that lead to fascism and abandon the rule of law for power and nationalism the responsibility does not lie with the leaders alone but with the people who need to stand up and renounce these policies and agendas regardless of the politics of winning and losing. History is littered with such regimes.    
[ Parent ]
Your diary today (4.00 / 12)
stared out in the comments as a welcome relief but soon turned into a quagmire of sludge that is not only hateful but so stupid it dulls your brain and you end up fighting the absurd. I believe that it actually reinforces the fear and willful denial and that these people do not want to look at political 'reality'. People say over and over that these flame wars have always gone on as though that makes it normal. They are not pragmatic as coalitions are a necessity in politics.

Strange that of my two worlds politically speaking the grassroots part of the party is so much more tolerant and democratic. No one asks me at a grass root level to get a mop and clean up. No one calls me a Naderite and no one tells me I must support policy that only furthers the corporate grasp on our nation and states. Issues are now governance and they seem unable to hook up to basic democratic tenets let alone the laws of the land or common good. They are not helping the party they are hell bent on deconstructing what gave it the majority and the WH. They have made me lose hope in citizens and humanity at large. They are not the center of anything but the fear and ignorance that allows the pols and the owners of the place to maintain their grip on our government and society.

sorry for the rant but even if the meta goes away you cannot talk to a dinning room table that is as dumb as the it's counterpart the teabaggers they fear so much. All they care about is power and winning while the rest of the world suffers and our laws and principles are deconstructed on two legs better, fear and idolatry. It's a sewer and it taints your perspective to the point where you forget that they are not the norm. They are the  cowards who now man the gates of the new regime and maintain the bamboozle of peaceful 'change'. It's beyond tactics, civility or even politics.                    

but that's the point (4.00 / 7)
in political terms, they are as irrelevant as is palin. meanwhile, the bulk of site readers are looking for news and facts, and that simple and straightforward diary, despite the spammers, got a lot of quiet support. the number of people that rec'd it is vastly greater than the number that commented.  

the glory, the love, the madness.
[ Parent ]
I certainly make every effort to write about issues... (4.00 / 8)
...but I'm getting less and less readership.  That's really becoming depressing.

When all is said and done, what really matters is whether or not you are happy.
Everybody (4.00 / 4)
get fixated on the flames, like moths. The thing is they will not stop even if the meta goes away. I look for and find diearies that are policy and issue related but they soon deteriate as this 'faction' is gunning for heretics. The nature of fan is fanatic and it's all meta to them. How will this reflect on Obama or the Democratic party is the lens through which everything is viewed. The tactics they use are not the root of the problem it is the fact that they are not democratic or interested in the law or reality not slightly interested in it. Power is all they care about.

I will say this the real moderates the smart ones that I used to disagree with now seem like positively radical lefties. lol. I find myself thinking thank God their are some real disagreements that I can have with someone who actually thinks and is willing to be open. That is good as it has opened me up to coalitions with people I used to argue with.

I feel it doesn't help the situation politically to allow these people equivalency. It is the same problem I have with the Democratic pols who give the right wing equivalency when they refuse to prosecute and defend the same narrative and policies that the Bushies implemented. I also feel that there is really a legitimate rift in the Democrats and this is another denial that dkos fosters. If I yelled at my neighbors and friends even the more conservative ones, who are pissed off and called them trolls and tried to frighten and threaten them with teabaggers and purists they would laugh in my face. They do have other choices and they are not as afraid as the loyalists.                    

[ Parent ]
Meta Madness is Transient (4.00 / 5)
Keep your eye on the big picture you identified
I write what I write at Daily Kos because I want to teach and learn and try to effect some movement on the issues.
and hang in there.

Giving up any blog to the barbarians doesn't help you accomplish your mission.  So, take this as a buck-you-uppo and keep on keepin' on at as many blog sites as will carry your message of Progressivism.

We who want to elect more, better Democrats have to advocate, and advocate, and advocate again.

Hey, issues guy! (4.00 / 5)
This here shore does look like a meta essay.  Shore does.  Matter fact, sounds like one too.

OK.  Move very slowly and lemme see those hands.  Hold em up where I can see em.  Higher.  Now, slowly, very slowly back away from that keyboard.  Push the chair gently back.  Keep those hands where I can see em.  Now slowly stand up and turn yourself around.  Face me.

C'mon.  Time to see the great out of doors.  I think it's time to have a few glasses of beer and a pretzel or two chardonnay and some baked brie.

Truth is, you deserve better.  We all do.  Let's talk about issues, mkay?  Meta's like a fish.  It rots from the head down.


Visit The Dream Antilles, a Lit Blog.

OTOH (4.00 / 6)
I have seen some worthy soul searching there the last couple of days.  But it's my nature to see things that way because my mind closes to the ultra negative.  It will be okay just as long as we look up from our navels and get to work again.  I enjoyed a lot of the discussion on your diary Turkana.  I should be working in the garden and beading but I'm a seeker still searching for my best way to go to work for my politics and values.
Heh heh heh heh (4.00 / 4)
My plan is workin' to perfection.  

The meta on the liberal blogs is tearin' the ol' Democrat party to shreds, like two competing Death Panels tryin' to beat their quota for killin' grandmothers.  Meanwhile, the brave Tea Partiers are gearin' up for a Tax Day orgasm of patriotism (those are really awesome by the way).

All is proceedin' as I have foreseen.  
 

Daily Who? (4.00 / 9)

Meta, sweata (4.00 / 4)
Haven't followed the latest DK sweata.  Not a worthwhile place on my radar anymore.

I do wonder about what's been happening here, however.  I'm not happy about some of Obama's policies, but I would still rather have him as president than the alternative.  Does that make me Persona non Grata?  

I brought this up in a recent comment:

I've found myself cringing at some of the vitriol I've seen toward Obama (I'm fine with criticism, just not vitriol). It's worrisome because one danger (one of many) from the wingnut right is that their hatred for Obama as a man has led to a disrespect for the office.  

Criticism, yes; hunting packs in response (imo, for some, it's less about supporting Obama than about getting off on hurting others): fuck 'em.  But, also nix on the disrespect toward a president as opposed to open debate about his policies, which is what makes a democracy.

2c.

Dornoch firth stowps hae lang lugs...

turkana, i need to get back to work (4.00 / 9)
on a project due tomorrow, but did want to say that i see this as npk and buhdy see it.  the maligning that is going on cannot go uncontested.  those who are not aware will believe it if it sits there.  the fact that there were people today suggesting that buhdy wants to run dk - or that it is ineveitable that he will be banned - shows me just how ridiculous it has become.  not everyone parses things like you do and many are much more comfortable with status quo rather than questioning and demanding what is right.  i understand what you are saying about meta and issues, but to me this is an underlying issue that effects how effective we can be with issues.

"We all live in a house on fire, no fire department to call; no way out, just the upstairs window to look out of while the fire burns the house down with us trapped, locked in it."  -Tennessee Williams
i'm not saying don't contest it (4.00 / 3)
i am saying argue issues and facts, and if they can't, that says enough about them.

the glory, the love, the madness.
[ Parent ]
it is the only way to argue (4.00 / 5)
otb gave us a perfect example of it earlier this week.  name calling will get us nowhere.  i have to try to remember to hold my sarcasm and it is difficult for me, but if i do not, it is what they address rather than the facts.  i am learning to try to hide the contempt, but it is a real challenge for me.

"We all live in a house on fire, no fire department to call; no way out, just the upstairs window to look out of while the fire burns the house down with us trapped, locked in it."  -Tennessee Williams
[ Parent ]
This happened to me last week. (4.00 / 10)
Someone had posted a "Top Comment" and I read it but the comment referred to someone named "she." I clicked "parent" over and over but never got to who she was so I posted a comment in Top Comments asking "Who she is?"

The Kossack answered me in an email. She was another kossack. I had another email opened and by mistake I replied to the New York Botanical Garden media department with;

Oh meta stuff. Ever since everything became Jane Hamsher's fault I refuse to read what one blogger has to say about or how they react to another blogger. But that just me, I never knew that blogging was about blogging. I thought it was all about the other 308 million Americans. One of the main reasons I've backed off is the personality wars.

What was really amazing was that even thought the letter I replied to from the NYBG was about Emily Dickinson's Garden: The Poetry of Flowers, I got a response about how much they agreed with me as to where political blogging has gone.

I had a good laugh. If the New York Botanical Garden knows how much DailyKos is circling the drain, then the stupidity is well known.

 

LOL (4.00 / 7)
thats a  keeper!

"When you realize how perfect everything is you will tilt your head back and laugh at the sky" Buddha
[ Parent ]
Turk. (4.00 / 5)
What exactly do you think I should do when I see this?

Hell, if we could only get people on this site (0+ / 0-)
to read these postings. Instead, crap taking down President Obama shoots to the top of the wreck list. From privileged, white so-called "progressives". Oh noes!! The healthcare bill isn't perfect!
Good luck with that. Maybe everyone can get so demoralized that we can elect more neo-Confederates into power, because I'm sure that'll solve everything.

Here we go.  

Why should I remain at a blogsite where more and more it is becoming perfectly allowable by the site admins to call me a racist because I criticize the Obama Administration?

If this is going to continue, unchecked, which I will call supported, then I will just go elsewhere to find my news and information.  It is not like there aren't dozens to chose from.

Thank you for your tireless dedication and your beautiful photo work.

link? (0.00 / 0)


the glory, the love, the madness.
[ Parent ]
I'll give you the link to the diary. It only has 14 comments. (0.00 / 0)
http://www.dailykos.com/story/...

2 of them were mine.

I am sure you have seen this obscenity

http://www.dailykos.com/story/...

Now there is a diary up, where one of the main supporters of this unconscionable action claiming that they are not a part of any "faction".

My fat white ass.......

I wanted to counter that utter bullshit with this link, so as to show everybody reading that diary what is going on at their website, but I am just too tired, and maybe I just don't care.  I am going to be called a racist no matter what I do.  More and more and more.  No one is doing a damn thing about it.

That is fine.  Maybe they should just have the website for their propaganda and hate.  If Markos thinks it is OK, well then OK by me as well.

[ Parent ]
what are you referring to.....here? (4.00 / 2)
Now there is a diary up, where one of the main supporters of this unconscionable action claiming that they are not a part of any "faction".

Im not seein' it...?

"When you realize how perfect everything is you will tilt your head back and laugh at the sky" Buddha

[ Parent ]
your second link (4.00 / 3)
..... is a case study in how people who have no idea are getting played to the max, and then they have too much pride to ever admit to it, and they can then countercharge with the ethnic issues.... really, it's brilliant, studied, deliberate, and quite Machiavellian.  
[ Parent ]
that first comment (4.00 / 2)
received exactly zero recs- but i'm glad i saw it- wow!

and that diary... the irony was that while that diary was playing out, irishwitch had a terrific diary on the rec list about heathers, draco malfoy, bullying, and attack mobs. and it's worth noting that the diary you linked didn't get many recs, and appealed only to that usual small, and almost comically un-self-reflective, faction.

the glory, the love, the madness.

[ Parent ]
First Diary You Link To Was Fine (4.00 / 1)
Good stuff. The one comment was lame, but why let one comment spoil a good diary? Best sometimes just to ignore a comment .

I'll be scared later, right now I'm too mad--Bugs Bunny
[ Parent ]
Nope, taoskier. (4.00 / 3)
Jennifer Clare was/is part of of that gang in the second thread.  She was lobbing potshots from the diary from today, checking the waters to see if she could get away with it.

I am DONE being called a racist.

Turkana-----That second link-the "sistah-----"  Do you understand that the perpetrators of that diary believe that they have been given special dispensation, from I don't know who, to have their own diary, that they are allowed to invite only those people they want to hear, and that they can pile on donuts and viciously disrespect anyone who comes in that they do not want?  

I will state right here, that the diarist who wrote it claimed it is a "Private Diary", that she is the sheriff and she gets to make the rules, the FAQ/DKos rules do not apply to her diary.

All references to "Private Thread" are now gone.  But 3 other people saw the declaration, I will not name who at this point.  You can tell me I am spreading lies, or I am into CT, but I know what I saw, because I was completely shocked.

MB knows about this.  He wrote, when asked, that he will deal with it.  Easiest just to ask MB about what has been done, if anything.

I do not see how any of this will be resolved.  If there are a number of people on DK who are insistent and persistent with their belief that all people who criticize Obama are racists, then that is what DK is going to represent.  Maybe DK4 will paper over the problem, but people with the firm belief that they are being unendlessly persecuted because of "racist" criticism, are not going to feel better, or change their beliefs any time soon.  From my POV, it will only get worse.  

All presidents get  greatly criticized.  Obama knew he would encounter criticism while in office, it comes with the territory.  For anyone to think there would be no criticism, and then when it happens, blame it on massive, pervasive racism, well, this a a sociological manifestation that must have been forseen.  7 years of criticism------that is what is in the future.  How is this going to play out?  

Your Probably Right, omh (4.00 / 2)
For myself I avoid getting into back n' forths at orange with those unable to think clearly.

I'll be scared later, right now I'm too mad--Bugs Bunny
[ Parent ]
Yes. You are so right. (4.00 / 2)
Last night I was taking  a couple of them on, in my own unique way, and then I was told that the links I was providing were not the ones I thought I was.  LOL!  What a doofus!  Even better, the link I did provide was one of the most insiring comments I have ever read on DKos!  Spreading the Word, spreading the Love, instead of the Ugly----------is this an amazing universe or what?!  ;-)
[ Parent ]
i saw the diary, when it was live (4.00 / 2)
i saw the comments, and the gang attack. but again- that's a very small faction.

the glory, the love, the madness.
[ Parent ]
Disagree, Turkana. (4.00 / 2)
For every One faction member, there are 10 Kossacks who are attracted to them and follow what they say. And those 10 attract another 10. Do these people know exactly who they are following and what their true motives are?  No.  But they stand up and defend that faction member, not knowing what the end result is of their actions.  Many truly are being manipulated.

They tend to be attracted because it comes down to this-the real factions are "Do you want to be Right or do you want to be Happy?"  Those needing to be right, i.e---"I was right to vote for Obama, If I am not, I will look like I am stupid, so I will fight to be seen as right."  They are desparately looking for someone to support their effort in being "right" and they are being manipulated by that need.

Those who would chose "happy" will look more objectively at their choice, accept the consequences (So I was wrong--meh) move on and work to improve what ever hand they have been dealt.  Because they have no need to be rghgt, they allow themselves to be happy. The can learn to stand in their truth.

You don't have to see it my way, but if I am correct in my assessment, and if it is true that the greasy wheel gets oiled, I think that if "It's a very small faction" is what the DK admins think, they are in denial.  I would say that it is dangerous, but it is just a blog, and it is just about making a living there, or not.  The only thing that may get hurt are peoples' feelings and the only thing that may be lost is are a few paid staff's salaries.  There are simply other venues where folks can express themselves.

[ Parent ]
if it was a larger problem (4.00 / 1)
that diary would have been rec listed. the diarist is popular, and has written some very good diaries. despite that popularity, that diary went nowhere.

the glory, the love, the madness.
[ Parent ]
There is a larger problem (4.00 / 1)
http://www.dailykos.com/commen...

But if you want to play around pretending there's not, there isn't much I can do about it.  

[ Parent ]
Agree, ARC. (4.00 / 1)
Obviously people here agree that it is a larger problem.  For all of buhdys' efforts this past week, it remains to be seen if anything will change.  
[ Parent ]
Not Sure What You Are Getting At.... (4.00 / 1)
Sometimes I'm slow/dense, whatever.

It was a horribly configured sentence. If a commenter or whoever wants to get their point across, understanding basic sentence structuring helps a lot.

I'll be scared later, right now I'm too mad--Bugs Bunny

[ Parent ]
there are problems (4.00 / 1)
but that one was silly. a poorly constructed sentence was inspiration for an irrelevant criticism. meta meh.

the glory, the love, the madness.
[ Parent ]
The blogospher is intoxicating (4.00 / 4)
We think we are reaching 100's or 1,000's, and our brains explode.

Better to speak to the ONE person we are replying to, and give them the attention we would if they were sitting across the table from us.  We'll be more thoughtful, and we'll know when to break it off.

"I don't mind if you don't like my manners, I don't like them myself. They are pretty bad. I grieve over them on long winter evenings." -- Marlowe

Improving the Mechanics of the Blog (4.00 / 1)
IMO, the mechanics of blogs could be improved. Quite easily, I should think.

Basically, you should give diarists the ability to ban people from further commenting in any particular diary, if they don't think the commentator is being serious. (But only after the offending commentator makes at least one post.) Since some diarists will do so dishonestly, or because they're fanatics or overly irrational,

  1. people who are banned should have the ability to respond, with either the verbiage or the link to verbiage clearly shown in the diary
  2. the banned person should have the opportunity to troll-rate the diarist who banned them

The enhanced blogs should also display links to diarists' lifetime banning records, plus their lifetime troll ratings. (Dimensions for the latter might be in terms of number of troll ratings  divided by number of diaries, divided by number of unique commentators; the troll rates should be weighted according to the "trollishness" of the person giving the troll rating.  So, if a person gets banned by a large number of distinct diarists, and in a large number of diaries per diarist, the weight of their troll-rating of diarists is decreased, accordingly.)

Another mechanical approach to addressing both commentator trolling and excessive diarist irrationality , which could also be tried, is to allow the diarist to throw an optional switch (let's assume that it's on, by default), which allows the diarist to confine commentators to a single reply per day, or per X hours. (With visual cues that show you when the diary is writable, to yourself, which are updated with each page refresh.)

The idea, here, is to channel commentators in the direction of writing longer, essay-like responses to the diary (or, alternatively, to another commentator).  On the negative side, it will put a damper on the sort of normal back and forth of a conversation, plus some people may have something significant to say to a number of commentators, who aren't gong to be bothered checking back in after X hours, just for the privilege of doing so.

In the case of dailykos, there are so many comments which aren't trollish, but are not really substantive, either, that one can waste a great deal of time wading through them. For such a high-volume site, at least trying some of the fixes I propose seems like a very good idea. In fact, I think I'll write a post, there, to suggest this.

for a FULL COURT PRESS
DemocracyABC.org

Another wrinkle on this idea (4.00 / 1)
 Another idea to try is to give the diarist the option to assign their per-diary banning privileges to a moderator. In this case, I believe the moderator should be named, and they should be liable to be troll-rated, as if they themselves were the diarist who had banned a commentator. Since the diarist assigned such privileges, they will still absorb troll ratings from banned commentators. This will encourage them to pick moderators who reflect their own judgments.

Unfortunately, the "community rating" schemes are highly susceptible to being gamed by trolls, themselves, COINTELPRO-like efforts, irrational cliques within a blog community (who imagine that their uniformity of irrational 'reasoning' implies rationality), etc. That doesn't seem to be a problem in some places, such as OpenLeft, but even there it might have helped things. E.g., jeffroby was banned, for no particularly good reason that I can discern. ("bad faith" was the stated reason, IIRC, concerning jeffroby's comment that Obama might have gotten Kucinich to flip on his healthcare vote by threatening the people of Ohio). If the owner of OpenLeft was in a bad mood that day, he could have expressed his displeasure in a less 'fatal' way, had these features I'm suggesting been available.  

for a FULL COURT PRESS
DemocracyABC.org

[ Parent ]
Amen to this diary here at DD. (4.00 / 1)
Fuck The Meta | 171 comments
 

Menu

- Create New Account
- Lost password
- Contact Us

Username:

Password:




- Mission Statement
- FAQ
- YouTube Posting
- HTML Help

Seek




Advanced Search

Contribute to Docudharma
 

 
     

 

Action
- Why Are Bank CEO's Seated on the New York Federal Reserve?
by: TheMomCat
- Stop CISPA: What You Need to Know
by: TheMomCat
- CISPA: Cybersecurity That Leaves Us All Unsecure
by: TheMomCat
- 'This is what co-optation looks like'
by: ek hornbeck

WikiLeaks Mirror Sites
 

Powered by: SoapBlox