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Ninth Circuit: Supreme Court Handgun Case Doesn't Cover All Weapons

by: Gary L. Norton

Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 13:22:05 PDT        
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(6:30PM EST - promoted by Nightprowlkitty)

The Ninth Circuit issued an unpublished decision in the case U.S. v Gilbert on July 15 holding that the recent Supreme Court Second Amendment case does not give people the right to own automatic weapons and sawed off rifles. The court stated

The Supreme Court's recent decision in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. ___ (2008), holding that the Second Amendment protects a limited individual right to possess a firearm-unconnected with service in a militia-does not alter our conclusion.  Under Heller, individuals still do not have the right to possess machineguns or short-barreled rifles, as Gilbert did, and convicted felons, such as Gilbert, do not have the right to possess any firearms.  Id., Slip. Op. at 27.

Since the Supreme Court decided the Heller case there has been much speculation regarding the scope of the ruling. Would this open the flood gates to unrestricted ownership of handguns and permit the ownership other types of weapons, like assault rifles. The Ninth Circuit opinion says that it does not.

(Crossposted at DailyKos.)

Gary L. Norton :: Ninth Circuit: Supreme Court Handgun Case Doesn't Cover All Weapons
The facts in Gilbert are straight forward. Gilbert was charged with ten counts involving owning a machine gun, owning unregistered firearms, and being a felon in possesion of a firearm. He said he knowingly bought some of the weapons from undercover agents because he wants to challenge the Constitutionality of the gun laws. At the end of the trial the jury was given the following instruction,

A person does not have the right under the Second Amendment, or under
any other provision of the Constitution, to possess a machinegun.  A person does not have a right, under the Second Amendment, or under any other provision of the Constitution, to possess a rifle with a barrel shorter than 16 inches that the person has not registered in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record.

Gilbert appealed his conviction arguing that the jury instruction violated his Second Amendment rights.

The Ninth Circuit did not buy his argument and, as noted above, said that the Supreme Court's Heller decision articulates a limited individual right to possess a firearm that does not extend to machine guns, short barreled rifles, or to the ownership of weapons by felons.

Unfortunately, the Gilbert opinion is very short and does not include an explanation of why the court read the Heller decision in this limited way. But, beyond the limitations of the ruling itself, there is ample language in the Heller case to support this reading of the decision.

Like any case, the Supreme Court's Heller decision itself was limited to the facts of the case, which was the ownership of a handgun by a non-felon, who had not been judged mentally incompetent. However, there was much discussion in the dicta of the opinion where the majority not only says this is a limited right but also discusses areas where government regulation would not conflict with the Second Amendment.

Here is an excerpt from an article discussing the limitations in the Heller opinion.

Much will be written on the subject as we have a chance to digest the language of the opinion. But these statements from the majority opinion should allay fears that the doors have been opened to unrestricted gun ownership.

At the outset, the Court says that it's longstanding opinion in United States v Miller is still valid but clarifies the scope of that decision.

We therefore read Miller to say only that the Second Amendment does not protect those weapons not typically possessed by law-abiding citizens for lawful purposes, such as short-barreled shotguns.  

The court is protecting weapons held by law abiding people for lawful purposes. Self-defense is the lawful purpose the court is upholding. The court also limits the protection to the types of weapons that a militia man would have in his home at the time of the founding.

We also recognize another important limitation on the right to keep and carry arms.  Miller said, as we have explained, that the sorts of weapons protected were those "in common use at the time."

That does not mean the Court is sanctioning the types of weapons a soldier would use today.

It may be objected that if weapons that are most useful in military service-M-16 rifles and the like-may be banned, then the Second Amendment right is completely detached from the prefatory clause.  But as we have said, the conception of the militia at the time of the Second Amendment's ratification was the body of all citizens capable of military service, who would bring the sorts of lawful weapons that they possessed at home to militia duty.  It may well be true today that a militia, to be as effective as militias in the 18th century, would require sophisticated arms that are highly unusual in society at large.  Indeed, it may be true that no amount of small arms could be useful against modern-day bombers and tanks.  But the fact that modern developments have limited the degree of fit between the prefatory clause and the protected right cannot change our interpretation of the right.

The decision goes on to make clear that the Amendment does not prohibit the who, what, where and why of weapons regulation.

Like most rights, the right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited.  From Blackstone through the 19th-century cases, commentators and courts routinely explained that the right was not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose.

For instance, it doesn't guarantee the right to carry concealed weapons.

For example, the majority of the 19th-century courts to consider the question held that prohibitions on carrying concealed weapons were lawful under the Second Amendment or state analogues.

Also the government can regulate who owns weapons and where they may be carried.

nothing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms

It remains to be seen how the Supreme Court ultimately refines the limits of the Heller decision. But the lower courts seem to be reading it narrowly and following the limitations that are suggested in the ruling. And lest anyone think this limited approach has only appeared in the so-called "liberal" Ninth Circuit, District Court decisions in Missouri, Johnson v U.S., and Louisiana, U.S. v Dorosan, have reached the same conclusion.

What does all of this mean for Obama and other Democrats in the upcoming election? The Supreme Court has taken off the table one of the most divisive issues that has bedeviled Democrats in many decades of elections. For decades, the NRA has used the "right to bear arms" as a major fund raising tool and rallying cry. They have been able to successfully attack sensible gun control legislation by using the absolutist argument that Democrats want to totally disarm all Americans. They will not be able to do so any longer.

The Supreme Court has decided there is an individual right to own handguns. That decision, right or wrong, will be with us for a long time. Moving forward, states and cities cannot enact laws that impose a complete ban on handgun ownership. Beyond that, however, a conservative majority of the Court, in an opinion written by Scalia, has signaled its willingness to accept most forms of gun regulation currently on the books, and the lower courts are already adopting that position.

Scalia, the darling of the NRA, has said that guns can be regulated. The Second Amendment right to own a gun does not extend any person, regardless of their background, it does not mean that any type of gun can be owned, and it does not mean a person can take a gun anywhere they wish.

The NRA won its Second Amendment battle but it will prove to be a pyrrhic victory. A powerful fundraising and campaign tool has been taken away from them. They can no longer threaten that guns will be taken away from law abiding citizens. That issue has been decided. The issue left on the table is whether we can have reasonable gun control legislation designed to protect the health, safety and welfare of our communities. As the NRA finds itself defending gun ownership by felons, possession of automatic weapons, tanks and grenade launchers, and the carrying of weapons near schools it will find itself increasingly associated with the most lunatic fringe of the movement with no Scalia or Second Amendment to fall back on.

From this point on the discussion will shift to the reasonableness of specific types of gun control. Those are arguments that progressives can win. But we still need to elect Obama and a strongly Democratic Senate to ensure that the courts continue to interpret Heller in a limited manner.

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Glad to see this: (4.00 / 2)
But the lower courts seem to be reading it narrowly and following the limitations that are suggested in the ruling.

Thanks for this essay, Gary. As I am not a gun-owner (nor wish to be), I have had trouble understanding this decision, and what you've written has clarified it enough for me to at least have a grasp on what this case is about.


Thanks. I was actually heartened when (4.00 / 2)
I read the Heller decision. Scalia went out of his way to rhetorically embrace virtually every type of gun control on the books, just not the outright banning of handguns. That is where most of the country is and that can only help Democrats electorally.  

[ Parent ]
The 9th Circuit is wrong. (4.00 / 3)
The individual right recognized in Heller is not specific as to type of firearm.

But the idea that this right can be eroded based on type of firearm is false.

If this idea were correct, a state legislature could define a firearm as anything from a pea shooter on up, and then provide that only pea shooters are protected under the Second Amendment.

The Supreme Court left to another day the standard by which a state can limit ownership of a firearm.


Sorry to disagree. I included some (4.00 / 1)
of the many portions of the Scalia opinion that say, in dicta, that laws governing automatic weapons, sawed off shotguns and other weapons that are not equivalent to those used for self defense in 1789 can be regulated.

The decision is, by its terms, specifically limited to the facts of the case, which involved only the D.C.  complete ban on handguns. But Scalia went beyond that to rhetorically embrace the types of restrictions contained in Federal statutes. Of course we will have to wait for cases to arise that specifically address those other weapons, but I can't see the "conservatives" retreating on that. If they were inclined to do that, he would not have included those discussions in his opinion. And there is little doubt where the court moderates will be.

As to the states, the court will first have to deal with Second Amendment incorporation. I'd bet they have no problem applying the Second to the states, but there will be some interesting twists. Once that is done, the Second Amendment limits will apply uniformly to state and Federal laws. I am aware of no federal Constitutional right that has been made applicable to the States where the court articulates a different scope of the right depending on whether a Federal or State law is being challenged.


[ Parent ]
Gary (4.00 / 1)
Why do you want to regulate individual ownership of firearms?

To prevent crime?

Good luck.

Regulation only affects lawful owners.

Criminals can get any type of guns.


[ Parent ]
I don't want to do anything. I am explaining these (4.00 / 1)
decisions.  

[ Parent ]
What about my bazooka? (4.00 / 1)


When all is said and done, what really matters is whether or not you are happy.

I fail to see ... (4.00 / 2)
... what this has to do with bubble gum.

;-)


[ Parent ]
Dubble Bubble... (4.00 / 3)
...toil and trouble:



When all is said and done, what really matters is whether or not you are happy.


[ Parent ]
Oh YOU'RE ... (4.00 / 2)
... ready for vacation all right!

LOL

;-)


[ Parent ]
What about it? (0.00 / 0)
I don't care if you own and use one or not, at least until you break the law with it.  BTW, in today's arms market, rocket propelled grenades are easier to get.

[ Parent ]
I built rockets as a kid in the late 1950s (4.00 / 1)
and early 1960s.

Learned from failure how to build a good rocket.

Hope, for the sake of kids today, a homemade rocket is a firearm and protected under the Second Amendment.

Don't think it is.  But maybe the First Amendment will work.


Red herring. (4.00 / 2)
A rocket is not a handgun.  You harm your case doing this.

When all is said and done, what really matters is whether or not you are happy.

[ Parent ]
Agree. (4.00 / 1)
Just in favor of individual freedom as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else.

[ Parent ]
So we can only regulate weapons... (0.00 / 0)
...after they have been used to shoot someone?  Sort of late then, isn't it...from the victim's point of view?

When all is said and done, what really matters is whether or not you are happy.

[ Parent ]
Robyn (0.00 / 0)
You need to go live in Bisbee, Arizona.

An artist community about 12 miles north of the Mexico border.

Lots of different folks there.

Many own guns.

Very low crime.

The problem isn't guns.  It's who owns them.  The crime rate among NRA members is about zero.


[ Parent ]
I don't "need to go live" anywhere. (0.00 / 0)
I don't fear where I live.  And I don't need weapons to protect myself.  I have to wonder about the mindset of people who do.

When all is said and done, what really matters is whether or not you are happy.

[ Parent ]
Robyn (0.00 / 0)
Then live where you do.

And best wishes.  Sincerely.  I mean it.


[ Parent ]
You did not answer my question. (4.00 / 1)
Don't think I didn't notice that.

When all is said and done, what really matters is whether or not you are happy.

[ Parent ]
Can the government regulate weapons after they (4.00 / 1)
they have been used to harm someone?

Is this your question?

I look at the Constitution, as amended.

The Constitution addresses rights, not wrongs.

Wrongs are left to the states.

A state can punish a person who uses a firearm to commit a crime.

That's a wrong the Constitution does not address.  Except by leaving residual power to the People and the States in the 9th and 10th Amendments.

The Constitution is all about (in 1791) individual liberty and limited power of the central government.


[ Parent ]
No, that was not my question... (0.00 / 0)
...and I think you know it was not my question.  My question concerns before, not after.

When all is said and done, what really matters is whether or not you are happy.

[ Parent ]
Really. Then you did not read the Gilbert (0.00 / 0)
decision. He was convicted of Federal crimes regarding the ownership of weapons. Opinions arew great things, but they are best informed by facts.

[ Parent ]
"...regulate weapons..." (0.00 / 0)
isn't, and hasn't ever been, the answer to either crime or violence.  Incorrect/improper focus.  Punish the person who commits the crime regardless of the means of commission.

Of course, one can't punish the "perpetrator to be" before the crime is committed, so it is always too late for any of the unfortunate victims.

It always boils down to the person.  No one, anywhere, is in any danger from me owning and using any type of firearm or explosive.  OTOH, the whole world is in danger and possibly probably a million civilians have already been killed from a few strokes of a pen wielded by the village idiot from Crawford.

It is never the tool and is always the fool.


[ Parent ]
I'm pretty sure... (4.00 / 1)
...Estes rockets (yeah, I was a geek, what's it to ya!) are and have been legal for quite some time.

"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it." ~ H.L. Mencken

[ Parent ]
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