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F*ck Obama, I'm voting for Nader

by: bring democracy to america

Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 21:45:12 PDT        
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I hate being right about people.  Especially when I'm being less than charitable.  I was always a bit leery about Obama and his flowery bullcrap.

Somehow everyone else would listen to his words and think that this guy could do no wrong.  I'd listen to him and hear weasel words like 'combat' troops (I'm going to withdraw 'combat' troops). Translation: We're not leaving Iraq if BHO is president.

He capitulates on FISA. He won't consider impeachment.  He votes for the Patriot Act reauthorization. Over and over he hands Bush a blank check for Iraq.  He wants to expand the military; in a country that already spends nearly 50-60% of it's discretionary funds on the military machine this man wants to expand it.

Some of the people over at the Big Orange are waking up.  However they'll still vote for BHO.  We're the majority; if we decide to actually vote our consciences then Nader can really be president.  At the very least it'll scare Barack to move back towards the left as he sees the poll numbers shift.
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F*ck Obama, I'm voting for Nader | 28 comments
We can do it .. (4.00 / 3)
.. only if we stick together and vote our consciences.

So, that makes (4.00 / 2)
you, me, and rjones2818. We'll need a few more votes, but I'm definitely on board!
Is Nader going to take away another Democratic victory? (4.00 / 2)

Do you really want McCain as your president? There is no doubt that Nader is the most principled person left in the race, but he will never garner more than 5% of the vote, if that. I lost all respect for Nader in 2000. If he had held a press conference one month before the election, with-drawn and pleaded for his followers to support Gore, we wouldn't be where we are today vis-a-vis Iraq, oil prices, spying on our selves, etc. ad nauseum.

The best option is fine, but it has to be the best feasible option.  

visualize: the act of the mind using spiritual energy to manifest in the physical realm  

It's only unfeasible if you make it so (4.00 / 2)
.. and your reasoning is why it happens.  What I'm saying is that if we just vote Democratic no matter what happens we will get McCain eventually. Why only 8 years ago I thought Clinton was pretty bad for a Democrat. Now Obama is worse; he's closer to the right wing ideas than Clinton was (Patriot Act, Iraq war funding, FISA/gutting the 4th amendment, bombing Iran/Pakinstan unilaterally, 'fixing' social security)

If we keep going down this path, they can safely whittle what little difference there is on foreign policy and gut whatever's left on the domestic side.

[ Parent ]
Well ... (4.00 / 2)
... I'm voting for Obama, but with a very heavy heart.

Because I know that once he is elected, I'll be fighting against him.

I don't think there are any good choices right now.

And it's not lesser of two evils, either.  I find that notion to be meaningless.

It's a hard road we have to travel.

What more does have to do .. (4.00 / 1)
.. If he can't stand up for a basic fundamental right (4th amendment), he's not getting anything done.  The right wing agenda will continue to be pushed.

If one side is willing to lay down like he did, the sociopaths (repugs) are going to win every time.

I hate the identity politics that our system has boiled down to.  He's 'black' only in appearance.  He seems to have sold his soul to the MIC/corptocracy.

[ Parent ]
As I said ... (4.00 / 1)
... I will no doubt be fighting against him once he gains office.  Not something I'm looking forward to.

I don't have any brilliant answers for you.  I do not think Nader is the answer, for many reasons - NL listed some of them below.

[ Parent ]
I'm not sure what you mean by this (4.00 / 2)
He's 'black' only in appearance.

But I find it offensive.

It has nothing to do with party or Obama. Just that it assumes there is a "blackness" by which people of color can be judged. And I would leave it to you to explain how that is not racist.  

Almost everything you do will seem insignificant, but it is important that you do it. Mahatma Gandhi

[ Parent ]
No offense intended .. (4.00 / 1)
What I mean is that a lot of people are voting for him or will do so based on his identity as a 'black' man.  I personally don't subscribe to labels like that which is why I put it in quotes.

But on most issues that are important to the poor, the underclass, he seems to be on the wrong side more often.

I personally don't think he's using race. I'm saying that a lot of people will vote for him based on his identity rather than his politics.  That I think is sad.  

[ Parent ]
Thanks for the explanation (4.00 / 2)
but I still think you're treading on dangerous ground when you assume what motivates people to vote - especially those people of color who have embraced Obama.

I have to wonder if you've talked to any of them or read what they have to say about why. Perhaps you have and have drawn that conclusion. But if not, I'd recommend that you do so before making assumptions.  

Almost everything you do will seem insignificant, but it is important that you do it. Mahatma Gandhi

[ Parent ]
I agree .. (4.00 / 2)
it's dangerous to assume why one is voting.  But I have talked to/read comments by a disturbingly high number of people, who decide to vote based on identity.  

Still it's just anecdotes ..

[ Parent ]
Obama (4.00 / 1)
is the nominee now... it doesn't matter if he's black, white or pink, people will vote for him because he is on the ballot.  the primaries are done, over.  

also, i have no problem with people who voted for him in the primaries because of his race and gender.  i don't think that's sad, i think it's great.  i also have no problem with people who voted for Hillary because of her race and gender.  

No ponies, but
"Please pass the lotus flower..."  

[ Parent ]
If there were truly a candidate (4.00 / 4)
that I could vote for with my conscience, I might be willing to consider the risk. But Nader...not so much.

I know we can be certain he's not a corporatist. But other than that, I don't see much that he has to offer. He can't even figure out a way to work with the Green Party. How's he supposed to manage the presidency and deal with all the mess in DC? And I have serious concerns about his lack of understanding of the issues related to women and people of color.  

Almost everything you do will seem insignificant, but it is important that you do it. Mahatma Gandhi

.. concerns about women/people of color? (4.00 / 2)
Is there something specific ?  I'd like to know.

I don't know what's going on with him and the Green Party.

[ Parent ]
These issues have been boiling for years (4.00 / 1)
around Nader. But just one quick google search gives you this from the 2004 election. He and the Green Party have parted ways again for the 2008 election.

On issues related to women and people of color...same thing. He is pretty entrenched with the "good old white boys" that can dominate much of the labor movement (not always, but there are tensions there) at the expense of women and people of color. He has been criticized about this for years.  

Almost everything you do will seem insignificant, but it is important that you do it. Mahatma Gandhi

[ Parent ]
Here's his positions on social issues (0.00 / 0)
[ Parent ]
Some of the history... (4.00 / 3)
from Gloria Steinam

Nader is rightly obsessed with economic and corporate control, yet he belittles a deeper form of control - control of reproduction, and the most intimate parts of our lives. For example, he calls the women's movement and the gay and lesbian movements "gonadal politics," and ridicules the use of the word "patriarchy," as if it were somehow less important than the World Trade Organization.

from Barney Frank

Your desire to avoid what you deride as "gonadal politics," and I think of as the fight for gay and lesbian rights, has been consistent. Having been actively involved in the fight against gay and lesbian bias in Congress since 1981, I cannot remember ever hearing from you on this subject. And the record shows that you have similarly avoided the subject of abortion.

from CommonDreams

To Nader, racism is apparently an addendum to 'real' social justice issues. In reality, the problem of the twenty-first century is, sadly, still the problem of the color line. Most people of color are tired of colorblind politics that are designed to shut race out of the conversation and keep white America comfortable...

While a few prominent people of color, such as Randall Robinson, have enthusiastically endorsed Nader, he has failed to garner much support in communities of color and has yet to win the endorsement of any major non-white organization. Many activists of color have been repelled by Nader.

Just a few I found with a quick search.  

Almost everything you do will seem insignificant, but it is important that you do it. Mahatma Gandhi

[ Parent ]
Nader does inspire some vitriol .. (4.00 / 1)
.. these people have a right to their views.

Nader supports the Equal Righs Amendment for women.

Maybe I'm missing something here, why does he get attacked when his positions (as outlined on his website) on social issues are as progressive as they come ?

Personally I believe race is used to divide the underclass. By giving poor immigrants (we're all immigrants, except for the native Americans) from Europe access to this mythical thing known as 'whiteness' and giving them a few bones for that privilege, the elite have very nicely split the underclass.

'Divide & Conquer' works almost everytime

That is not to say that racism isn't a problem. It is; there are bigots everywhere.

The fundamental divide though is class. That cuts across race and other divisions.

[ Parent ]
What I see is that Nadar (4.00 / 2)
has made a choice about priorities - and in doing so, has alienated alot of the base (including now the Green Party) he would need to ever make a serious difference.

His focus is on fighting the corportocracy and in doing so, he has minimized other concerns through his silence. That works ok for an advocate, but not so much for someone running to be president of the US.

I personally, think he has squandered his impact by this constant need to scream about the presidential race ever 4 years. And that alone makes me question his candidacy.

But that's just me. I won't criticize anyone's choice in this matter - just ask that people do so with eyes wide open about ALL the candidates.  

Almost everything you do will seem insignificant, but it is important that you do it. Mahatma Gandhi

[ Parent ]
In the intervening years Nader suffers from a media blackout .. (0.00 / 0)
.. in the so called 'MSM'.  This time he said he wouldn't run unless Edwards lost and either Hillary or Obama became the democratic nominee.

Only in a election year, you see him on the 'MSM' channels.

I sincerely believe if Obama were to take a left turn and become the populist we all want him to be, Nader would be happy to drop out.

I wish Nader were more charismatic, like Obama.  Whatever Obama's flaws, he seems to inspire people.  Too bad his positions aren't where they should be

[ Parent ]
your comment contains the "why" for no Nader (4.00 / 3)
divide and conquer.  It will work for the GOP if we let it.  Obama was pretty far down my list, I'm afraid, but he stands a better chance of getting elected and making some changes than does Nader.

No one ever seems to discuss how Nader's gonna pass any legislation with a two-party congress.  Will he just veto everything till they give in?  

I'd love to see an alternative, but there isn't one.  Nader is not a true alternative... for many many reasons.

[ Parent ]
I'm just tired (4.00 / 2)
of the "moral high ground" being claimed without challenge by those who suggest we should vote for Nader. I have issues with him as well and a vote for him would NOT be a vote of conscience for me. Just MHO.

Almost everything you do will seem insignificant, but it is important that you do it. Mahatma Gandhi
[ Parent ]
Single-issue politics... (4.00 / 3)
...is apparently okay if it's the "correct" single issue.

When all is said and done, what really matters is whether or not you are happy.
[ Parent ]
Two by Debs (4.00 / 3)
It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.

The most heroic word in all languages is revolution. --Eugene V. Debs



I'm with Debs on (4.00 / 1)
the second quote...not so much on the first one.  Not when the stakes are this high and to "not get [what you want]" means McSame.

One function of the income gap is that the people at the top of the heap have a hard time even seeing those at the bottom. They practically need a telescope.--Molly Ivins
[ Parent ]
FWIW (4.00 / 6)
Electoral politics, and specifically the election of a president in November, isn't going to change very much for the better, but it could  make things a whole lot worse.  Going to a third party candidate now (I have no ax to grind with Ralph) just marginalizes the left even further because Ralph can't get the resources necessary to win an election, all he can do without organization and money and support is be a spoiler (2000) or irrelevant (2004).

It's already too late for electoral politics for November.  I think the progressive left has to begin at the ground level and build a new party and a new movement.  I don't think it can be done before 2012 at the earliest.  I do think it's worth the effort to get moving on it.

In the meanwhile, I think we're stuck doing what we can to elect the Dem candidate and hoping that he'll move the nation back from the fascist excesses of the past 7 years.  Failing to support him is going to make Bush's 2nd term look like a cakewalk compared to his 3rd.  

Visit The Dream Antilles, a Lit Blog.

what davidseth said (4.00 / 3)
i'm willing to put energy into something else, another way, to lay a foundation for the future.  but as long as i have some thought that my vote actually counts and isn't just a symbolic act, i'll be pulling that lever for Obama in November.  otherwise, why not just write in Gandhi's name? or Durga? or Kali?  :-)

No ponies, but
"Please pass the lotus flower..."  
[ Parent ]
It should be interesting to (0.00 / 0)
see what impact Bob Barr has on the other side of the aisle...

Always forgive your enemies.  Nothing annoys them so much. ~Oscar Wilde
[ Parent ]
F*ck Obama, I'm voting for Nader | 28 comments
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