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UPDATED II: Major Announcement w/Mike Gravel

  

by: FreeSociety

Wed Sep 08, 2010 at 12:05:19 PDT




Please post this on the Front Page, as this announcement could create a critical "tipping point" in public opinion.




UPDATED: 09/11/2010







UPDATED: 09/09/2010

Sen. Gravel, who said in a press release that "critically important evidence has come forward after the original government building reports were completed." Gravel has been concerned with the events of September 11, 2001, for some time now. He has called for an independent investigation into 9/11.

"Unlike the first investigation, this commission should be granted subpoena power and full access to all governmental files and personnel," Gravel wrote. "George Bush should be forced to testify ALONE."

San Francisco Architect Richard Gage said the way the towers collapsed was consistent with a controlled demolition, not a chaotic structural collapse.

"The official FEMA and NIST reports provide insufficient, contradictory, and fraudulent accounts of the circumstances of the towers' destruction," Gage said. "We are therefore calling for a grand jury investigation of NIST officials."

But Gage added that "government investigators at the NIST have been forced to acknowledge the free-fall descent, an indicting fact, after being presented with analysis by AE911Truth petition signers."

On its Web site, the architects' and engineers' group lists facts that suggest explosives were used to take down the towers.

-- Rapid onset of "collapse"
-- Sounds of explosions at ground floor - a second before the building's destruction
-- Symmetrical "structural failure" -- through the path of greatest resistance -- at free-fall acceleration
-- Massive volume of expanding pyroclastic dust clouds
-- Expert corroboration from the top European Controlled Demolition professional
-- FEMA finds rapid oxidation and intergranular melting on structural steel samples

WTC7 exhibited none of the characteristics of destruction by fire, i.e.
-- Slow onset with large visible deformations
-- Asymmetrical collapse which follows the path of least resistance (laws of conservation of momentum would cause a falling, to the side most damaged by the fires)
-- High-rise buildings with much larger, hotter, and longer lasting fires have never "collapsed".

From: www.rawstory.com





Clear Evidence Of Explosions.


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Pyroclastic Dust Clouds From Pulverized Concrete


Originial Press Release:







National Press Club, Washington DC, 2:00 pm, Thursday, September 9, 2010




WASHINGTON, Sept. 7 PRNewswire-USNewswire -- On Thursday September 9, 2010, Mike Gravel and Richard Gage will host a central press conference at the National Press Club in Washington, DC, presenting hard evidence that all three WTC skyscrapers on September 11, 2001, in NYC were destroyed by explosive controlled demolition.

Senator Gravel notes, "Critically important evidence has come forward after the original government building reports were completed."

This press conference will be webcast at AE911Truth.org and hosted concurrently in cities throughout the world.*  Following the conference, there will be a mock debate during which public statements made by government investigators and other defenders of the official account will be presented and responded to in multimedia format.  "They refuse to debate us in person," says Gage, "so we will let their public statements represent them."

Gage will release a media-friendly summary of his organization's findings, which are based on forensic evidence as well as video and eyewitness testimony that were omitted from official reports.  

He will show evidence that the WTC Twin Towers were not destroyed by jet plane impacts or fires, but by pre-set explosives and incendiaries.  The non-profit organization, Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth, will also call for a grand jury investigation of government report lead engineers Shyam Sunder and John Gross of the National Institute of Standards and Technology. "They were in a position to know the evidence we have been presenting," says Gage.

Also speaking will be Florida State Professor Lance deHaven-Smith, who coined the academic term State Crimes Against Democracy (SCAD).  Prof. deHaven-Smith has appeared on Good Morning America, the Today Show, NBC Nightly News with Tom Brokaw, CBS Nightly News with Dan Rather, and other national TV/radio shows.  

The DC press conference will be accessible via webcast AE911Truth.org, 2:00 pm September 9, 2010.

* For information on satellite press conferences in your area, contact CongressionalOutreachTeam [at] ae911truth.org.

To arrange print/broadcast interviews, with Richard Gage, AIA, contact Tania at 510-292-4710, or via email at 1000 [at] ae911truth.org.  

CONTACT: David Slesinger  410-499-5403

SOURCE Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth

FreeSociety :: UPDATED II: Major Announcement w/Mike Gravel


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Free Falling


As with the Kennedy Assassination Coup d' Etat, the truth of the orchestrated Sept. 11 attack will eventually come out, and be over time even relunctantly accepted by the large majority of critically thinking Americans.

The only question that remains though is will anyone ever be held accountable? Think of about all the MILLIONS of people who have now been slaughtered all on account of (and justified by) "911".  Think about all the young boys who have been horribly tortured.  Think about the TRILLIONS of dollars that have destroyed the American economy, and robbed Americans of their standard of living?  

What does it take for someone to be held accountable?





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Masters Of War





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just so you know (4.00 / 9)
i've "stolen" your announcement to post at my wee-tiny blog (& others too!)

come firefly-dreaming with me..&..do no harm

Way to go, Ria... (4.00 / 5)


Breathe in emptiness and luminosity.  Breathe out compassion.

[ Parent ]
Hold Them Accountable! (4.00 / 6)


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"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold, is for
people of good conscience to remain silent."
    --Thomas Jefferson


FreeSociety (4.00 / 4)
"If I did it", great play on OJ, who is now finally behind bars.
Let`s hope the Gila monster joins him soon.
My apologies to all monsters, Gila, or otherwise.

I`m already against the next war.

[ Parent ]
"Fire" or Explosions? YOU BE THE JUDGE! (4.00 / 3)


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"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold, is for
people of good conscience to remain silent."
    --Thomas Jefferson


I'm not sure what that photo is supposed to prove. (0.00 / 0)
If you look up, that black stuff is called smoke. Where there's smoke there's fire.  

[ Parent ]
And, just noticed your other photo (0.00 / 0)
above and to the left of dick cheney.

That black soot is unburned fuel. A lot of it.

Same in the pentagon pic to the right.

Looks pretty clear to me what happened. Huge fireball going down, unburned fuel going up.

That doesn't mean there wasn't a conspiracy here, but whoever started the meme that jet fuel wouldn't cause steel to melt and floors to buckle has really done the 'truth' movement a disservice. 'Cause it surely will.  


[ Parent ]
Nope (4.00 / 2)


No.

What you are looking at is the pulverization of concrete into fine dust, and steel beams being horizontally ejected at great distances (and at speeds of 60 M.P.H.).

Now, those things do not happen with mere fire, just as free-fall collapse at the speed of gravity never occurs with fire either.

Open your eyes:


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"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold, is for
people of good conscience to remain silent."
    --Thomas Jefferson


[ Parent ]
What makes you think those are explosions? (0.00 / 0)
And not say falling debris?

And all that black smoke? That's soot.

And if they were explosions, how come they're not along the corner girders?

And your assertion  

that these things do not happen with mere fire
is based on what exactly?

Ever see what 'mere fire' did to Dresden?

There really may be a link to Cheney in all of this, but a bunch of folks playing amateur  structural engineer in fact does nothing but obscure the whole issue.  

I think that's the point.  


[ Parent ]
do you mind if (0.00 / 0)
.... I agree with you ?


There really may be a link to Cheney in all of this, but a bunch of folks playing amateur  structural engineer in fact does nothing but obscure the whole issue.

 

Some of the intrepretations of these pictures are absurd.   Those aren't explosions, that's air and smoke and dust poofing out from the sudden drop of the upper floor debris coming down and collapsing what is left on each floor, which collapses the next one, next one, next one....  which wasn't designed to bear the load at the points where the girders were joined.

When WT building 7 came down (and I've seen way too may images of that in the past 24 hours)  there was another giant dust/smoke puffball rolling down the street between the the buildings towards the cameras on the street level. Like the roof top was a plunger.  Geez.  


[ Parent ]
It had to happen sometime. (0.00 / 0)
I'm not saying free society couldn't be right. It's possible.  But, I've seen nothing to convince me of it, whatsoever. And there are a lot of other things about 9/11 that would seem to be really damning, with real evidence.


[ Parent ]
Watch the video that I posted in the main Diary (4.00 / 2)
Below the updated blockquote.

That video show multiple corroborative direct eyewitness evidence bearing first-hand witness to explosions. This trumps any mere authoritative denials coming from people (in the Establishment) who were not even at the scene of the crime to begin with.

And horizontal ejection of steel beams does not happen from mere fire or melting.  The force to accomplish that, and break and throw these steel beams sideways across city blocks can only come from explosions.

Watch the video.


"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold, is for
people of good conscience to remain silent."
    --Thomas Jefferson


[ Parent ]
Snork. Just more "watch the video," (0.00 / 0)
....  "authoritative denials coming from people in the Establishment" is sorta cute.  You mean like the people who passed their physics and structural steel design courses ?

You don't get the whole mass and gravity thing, do you ?  Oh, well.  How did that big heavy metal airplane ever get up into the sky to begin with ?  

Aren't you even embarrassed that there are people who claim there weren't any airplanes hitting the buildings anywhere, either ?


[ Parent ]
1300 Architects, Enginneers, and Scientists WANT a New Investigation!! (4.00 / 3)


If you believe that the NIST hacks (with political pressure brought to bear) carries more weight than independent, free-thinking scientific experts, than I guess there is just no hope for you.

And even some of the 911 Commission members have gone public and stated that this was a whitewash.




"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold, is for
people of good conscience to remain silent."
    --Thomas Jefferson


[ Parent ]
Did you miss where I deconstructed Lubchenko's so called indie experts (0.00 / 0)
.... about the effect of the dispersants and the supposed disappearance of most of the BP oil spill by "natural processes"  ?  

Those were supposed to be independent experts, too, and it turns out they were all already working for either the governments of the US, Canada, or for the various oil companies already, and were actually getting paid to study dispersants.  Or oil spills.  How about that.

Of course there was a whitewash, but you are barking at the wrong tree, the one without a squirrel up it.  


[ Parent ]
Changing the subject (Oil) won't help your case. (4.00 / 1)


Nanothermite was discovered in samples of the WTC dust -- and this is physical evidence (and clearly evidence of demolition, and not any mere "melting" activity or simple heat).

And we have also photographic evidence of precise, regular 45-degree angle cuts in the massive steel columns, another well-known hallmark of controlled demolition techinque and science.

Now you can switch the subject to Oil, Global Warming, or squirrels all you want to, but that does not change the physical evidence.
__

FYI, bombs were used in the WTC in 1993 attack as well (and also Oklahoma). Why is it so hard then for people to comprehend their use in 2001?  


"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold, is for
people of good conscience to remain silent."
    --Thomas Jefferson


[ Parent ]
Your debater (I use... (4.00 / 2)
...that term for the sake of politeness, not as an accurate description)does not believe that the official story defenders are "NIST hacks" nor that the critics are..."independent, free-thinking scientific experts....

If you believe that the NIST hacks (with political pressure brought to bear) carries more weight than independent, free-thinking scientific experts,...

I address this comment to you, FS, because the said debater seems to be more attached to 'being right' than to keeping an open mind.   Unfortunately, this is not the first time I've noticed this with her.  

I kind of feel the problem is that she is so passionate, so emotionally invested in the issue, that she blurts out a lot of very strong rhetoric before thinking things through and then finds herself trapped in her own cunundrum with no way out except to admit error.  The latter being something this particular type of personality finds it difficult to do.

Breathe in emptiness and luminosity.  Breathe out compassion.


[ Parent ]
even skeptics, atheists can be very attached to what I call faith- based engineering (0.00 / 0)
.... which consists of a lot of wishing something happened for reasons that do not make sense or are made up after the fact.  

I am not watching any more video on this, -  other than the extraordinary time sucking factor, because video can be faked and photoshopped, and I find the lack of real information on the site ridiculous. In fact, I'm really getting annoyed as hell because I see they did this as a publicity stunt at several congressional offices, with absolutely no information other than "we have new information" when I did searches for the supposed new information.   There should have been a very long paper with a lot of explanation.  Instead, nothing.  I may as go watch a sci fi horror movie on cable.

And you have no idea how much of this I've looked at in the past. I'm done, other than when people start pretending airplanes don't fly, I point out that they did.



[ Parent ]
My comment to FS stands and... (4.00 / 1)
...I have no further comment for you.  

Breathe in emptiness and luminosity.  Breathe out compassion.

[ Parent ]
There were explosive sounds. So what? (0.00 / 0)
Nothing in the video of interest, really.

But this web site has some info more favorable to your point:

http://911review.com/articles/...

I think wtc7 was a controlled demolition - in fact I remember them announcing that on CNN at the time, because they claimed it was to damaged to stand for long, and there really is no other explanation for it. That's what Silverstein (the owner said later too). Maybe they changed the story for insurance reasons. Or maybe they changed it to hide a vast conspiracy, as you suggest.

As for the towers, I don't really know. The massive size of the conspiracy you are suggesting is a problem. You'd need: FBI investigators, police, special ops, demolition experts, air force, maybe both civilian and military aircraft controllers, and many more.   All on board, and no one talking. 1000s of people in fact. That's a tough sell. I don't think you can really get past it, although again, it's not totally impossible.  On the other hand, if the towers went down because of airplanes, any conspiracy linked to Cheney or whoever could be a magnitude smaller.  


[ Parent ]
LOL: Explosions = "nothing of interest" (4.00 / 2)

LOL!

That's like saying: "so what that there was a shark in the water, and now I have no legs...'nothing of interest'."




"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold, is for
people of good conscience to remain silent."
    --Thomas Jefferson


[ Parent ]
Explosive sounds. Duh. (0.00 / 0)
You think a building is going to catch on fire and fall w/o sounds?

[ Parent ]
Not all 'sounds' are alike... (4.00 / 1)
We all know what explosions are...


"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold, is for
people of good conscience to remain silent."
    --Thomas Jefferson


[ Parent ]
How It Happened: (4.00 / 5)


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"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold, is for
people of good conscience to remain silent."
    --Thomas Jefferson


do you (4.00 / 4)
have a link for this one?

come firefly-dreaming with me..&..do no harm

[ Parent ]
We interviewed Mr Gage (4.00 / 4)
on April 2nd... he is most compelling

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/d...

Visit me @ The Wild Wild Left! Crossposting is good for us all!


[ Parent ]
Thanks for the info, FS... (4.00 / 5)
...I hope I can get it on line.

Breathe in emptiness and luminosity.  Breathe out compassion.

you can go here: (4.00 / 4)
http://ae911truth.org/

tomorrow at 2pm eastern

and click on the "card" where it says Listen-in

come firefly-dreaming with me..&..do no harm


[ Parent ]
I've posted that "card" and link (4.00 / 3)
at the top of the front page of Antemedius till the webcast tomorrow, and just sent Richard Gage an email to let him know...

[ Parent ]
would you (4.00 / 1)
could you...
pleeeeze add that to the top of the essay at firefly?

come firefly-dreaming with me..&..do no harm

[ Parent ]
Done. (4.00 / 1)
I put the invoice in a bottle and threw it in the ocean. Please pay it promptly if it ever arrives, eh? ;-)

[ Parent ]
Thx Ria... (4.00 / 2)


Breathe in emptiness and luminosity.  Breathe out compassion.

[ Parent ]
Oh, fer #$%^&*#$%^& pete's sake (4.00 / 1)
....  you all want to play around with this, fine, I don't care, but there are all sorts of things that the Senator could be looking at in terms of the State Department, PNAC, Rumsfeld, Cheney, Wolfowitz, Kagan, etc.

Guantanamo.  The murders there.  Why the current admin is still keeping it open and full of people, some of whom should not be there.

The so called "Millenium Plot."  Why and how this country was fed the information from Israel and Pakistan and Jordan,  on who was supposedly "Bin Laden" and Associates.

Chalabi.

Why did the newspapers the very next day have all those names and pics in the papers nicely laid out of who did it.

The anthrax.  THAT should trouble people, nobody believes that resolution.

Abramoff and Scanlon and Belle Haven Associates and Greenberg Traurig,  and why they bent bass over ackwards to protect one Republican congressperson John Doolittle from squealing.

Not how the buildings came down.

That's a sideshow.  

You heat up from fire, then overweight your girder connections from shit falling on top from above, and down they go.  


No. (4.00 / 5)
It's never happened from fire. Not before, and not since. That is a conspiracy theory that has no foundation in fact, in physics, or in history.

The "official" conspiracy theory is the Bush story. They want you to believe in an utter statistical anomaly that has never occurred anywhere anytime in the history of skyscraper buildings.


[ Parent ]
Actually, they want you to believe (4.00 / 3)
in an utter statistical anomaly that has never happened before or since, happening not just once, but twice, on the same day, in the same place, while CNN just happened to have a camera set up and running in their financial offices that just happened to be pointed out the window at the WTC.

[ Parent ]
Oh, please, (0.00 / 0)
....  people are wanting to believe any old crap on this because so much of the rest of the story, the "election"  of the Drunken Fratboy when the Supreme Court installed him and the nation shrugged and said, okay, and the entire Bush Family Conspiracy to replace Saddam and invade Iraq was built on lies.

"Bin Laden determined to strike US" - ignored.   Why they didn't impeach him, I will never understand.

The two World Trade Center Towers went down because of fire from the fuel laden airplanes hitting them and exploding, and igniting them.

There are many examples of architectural failures.  

Fortunately we don't have jetliners hitting them everyday so we could compare results.

The buildings were designed to go down like that.  They were also designed to withstand the impact of an airplane and bend and flex and not go down immediately.....  to give people time ....  If your floors collapse, and the weight from each floor adds on and on.  

The complete effing morons who did NOT call for the immediate evacuation of the second building and the entire surrounding area when the first plane hit should also be questioned.

I'm more concerned that we apparently had so many "journalists" working at putting out press releases from the intel organizations as "news."  



[ Parent ]
No plane hit WTC 7 (4.00 / 4)

An Appeal to Firefighters, Present and Past from a retired FDNY Lieutenant

Fellow Firefighters, A great tragedy befell our community on September 11, 2001, an unprecedented 343 deaths in the line of duty. As horrible as that toll is, if there were a rational explanation for it, we could accept it and mourn. We all understood the risk we accepted when we took the oath of office, that chance might cut short our lives when we placed ourselves in harm's way in the public's service. This is what we are paid for and it is our honor. However, in short, the official explanation of the events of that day are not only insufficient, they are fantastic and cannot bear rational examination. We are asked to believe that on that day three structural steel buildings, which have never before in history collapsed because of fire, fell neatly into their basements at the speed of gravity, their concrete reduced to dust. We are asked to believe that jet fuel (kerosene) can melt steel. We are asked to believe that the most sophisticated air defense system in the world, that responded to sixty-eight emergencies in the year prior to 9-11 in less than twenty minutes allowed aircraft to wander about for up to an hour and a half. We are asked to believe that the steel and titanium components of an aircraft that supposedly hit the Pentagon "evaporated". There is much, much more if anyone cares to look into it. Trade Tower #7 by itself is the "smoking gun". Not hit by an aircraft, with only a few relatively small fires, it came down in a classic crimp and implosion, going straight into its basement, something only very precise demolition can accomplish, which takes days if not weeks to prepare. The 9-11 Commission didn't even mention it, and F.E.M.A. actually stated they DIDN'T KNOW WHY IT COLLAPSED AND LEFT IT AT THAT. Brothers, I know that the implications of the above are hard, almost unthinkable, but the official explanation is utter nonsense, and three hundred and forty three murdered brothers are crying out for justice. Demand a genuine investigation into the events of September 11!

-Anton Vodvarka, Lt. FDNY (ret)

-- http://firefightersfor911truth.org/


[ Parent ]
WTC 7 is the strangest thing here. (4.00 / 2)
And, yes, it's a smoking gun.  And there are a lot of others.

BUT:

If you were ever in the towers though, I think it's safe to say it's easy to imagine them falling from aircraft impact and fire -- or just about anything else.   Those things were darn flimsy. When I lived near them, my biker friends and I always used to wonder who they'd fall on if they fell, which is something we never wondered about with any other nyc buildings.

So, just because wtc 7 was probably demolished, which I'm pretty sure it was, doesn't mean that the towers were.

If heat can't melt and buckle steel, then how come deepwater horizon sunk?

Or was that a controlled demolition too?

I just don't get it.  


[ Parent ]
There were massive explosions (4.00 / 2)
on Deepwater Horizon

Just like there were massive explosions reported by FDNY firefighters in the substreet levels of WTC before it collapsed.


[ Parent ]
come deepwater horizon sunk? (4.00 / 2)
Deepwater Horizon was a ship, not a platform. If an explosion causes breach of hull integrity, it will sink, and apparently did. I do not know if there are plans or efforts to raise the wreckage. It should be worth the effort, but would have to be done via remotely operated vehicles.

[ Parent ]
I think it sank from accumulated damage (4.00 / 1)
from the explosions and fires. There were probably hull breaches that caused it to capsize and I guess that is what eventually sank it.

Wikipedia describes it this way:

At 9:45 P.M. CDT on 20 April 2010, during the final phases of drilling the exploratory well at Macondo,[48] a geyser of seawater erupted from the marine riser onto the rig, shooting 240 ft (73 m) into the air. This was soon followed by the eruption of a slushy combination of mud, methane gas, and water. The gas component of the slushy material quickly transitioned into a fully gaseous state and then ignited into a series of explosions and then a firestorm. An attempt was made to activate the blowout preventer, but it failed.[49]

At the time of the explosion, there were 126 crew on board; seven were employees of BP, 79 of Transocean, there were also employees of various other companies involved in the operation of the rig, including Anadarko, Halliburton and M-I Swaco.[50] Eleven workers were presumed killed in the initial explosion. The rig was evacuated, with numerous injured workers airlifted to medical facilities.[5] Support ships sprayed the rig with water in an ultimately unsuccessful bid to cool it and prevent it from capsizing. This was also intended to buy time in order to attempt to end the flow of oil and gas that were feeding the flames from coming up the riser pipe. If successful, this action would have reduced the flames and allowed special teams of firefighters to board the stricken rig and extinguish the remaining fire.[51]

After burning for approximately 36 hours, Deepwater Horizon sank on 22 April 2010.



[ Parent ]
Other possible contributing causes (4.00 / 2)
could be a large enough release of hydrated methane that converted to a gaseous phase before reaching the hull of the vessel. This would cause it to lose buoyancy and sink quickly, subsequently contributing to a large fireball on the surface if there was still an available ignition source.

[ Parent ]
It's a burial tomb for the 11 who died and they ought to leave it be (0.00 / 0)
.... having a bunch of lawyers fighting over the charred wreck of what is left of a drill rig, is not going to bring anybody back.

It was the decisions being made by the greedy executives on shore to over ride the decisions of offshore operations and ignore safety that brought it down.  There are plenty of records and evidence of that process.  That and piss poor design, the incompetence of the Minerals Management Service to regulate, and the multiple decisions to use equipment that just does not work at those depths and temperatures.  


[ Parent ]
It's also likely a crime scene, (4.00 / 1)
possibly a criminal negligence or a murder scene, and as such needs to be examined and investigated as thoroughly as possible, as 9/11 should be.

[ Parent ]
BP's offices are crime scenes (4.00 / 1)
... they shoulda yellow taped them suckers April 20th.  

[ Parent ]
has to be (4.00 / 1)
a helluva lot of heat to melt steel.... i think its 2700+o
no jet fuel can do that.

come firefly-dreaming with me..&..do no harm

[ Parent ]
Fire danger to highrise construction is well known... (4.00 / 3)
Which is why, since the late 19th Century in Chicago, steel framed high rise structures have been required by code to have the steel encased in concrete or other fire protective materials. This approach has been shown to be highly effective. So the question as to why the only three known 20th century instances of fire associated high rise collapse occurred on the same day at the same site and the third building was not even struck by an airplane. The first and the third are especially difficult to understand, the first because the plane struck high on the building, which meant that there was not a huge mass of structure above the impact area and the third because it suffered no impact at all.

[ Parent ]
"A New Pearl Harbour" by David Ray Griffin (4.00 / 3)

This is an excellent, very well researched book by an accredited member of academia, not a conspiracy theorist.

Much of the information presented is information that the lame stream media did not report, or reported in a much mangled fashion. Any one having doubts, pro or con, as to the cause of the fall of the towers should read this book. I know that the first time I saw the video of the buildings falling, my first impression was that it was a controlled explosion. I have had some limited experience in demolition of much smaller buildings, and I know for a fact that buildings do not fall in a nice neat pile like the towers did, unless engineered by explosive experts.

visualize: the act of the mind using spiritual energy to manifest in the physical realm  


[ Parent ]
thank you (4.00 / 2)
i've copied your comment to the discussion at my wee-tiny blog.

come firefly-dreaming with me..&..do no harm

[ Parent ]
The things you suggest should be looked at... (4.00 / 5)
...instead of "...play around with this...":

...things that the Senator could be looking at in terms of the State Department, PNAC, Rumsfeld, Cheney, Wolfowitz, Kagan, etc.
Guantanamo...murders there...current admin...keeping it open..."Bin Laden" and Associates.

Chalabi. ... the newspapers the very next day  ... antrax ...

All of these items are part and parcel of ...

how the buildings came down...

...and extremely relevant to destruction of our democracy and the takeover by the mafia-style crime syndicate which has it's iron fist on the means of control.

To become free of this travesty, we need to examine all areas, especially that so very explosive [pun intended] subject of the collapse of the Twin Towers and Building #7.

We need the facts, and we need accountability.  The Destruction on 9/11 is not "a sideshow."



Breathe in emptiness and luminosity.  Breathe out compassion.


[ Parent ]
Oh boy Edger... (4.00 / 2)
...You were so quick on that rec button, I thinky you must have been psycicly tuned in to what I was writing and waiting to click.

Breathe in emptiness and luminosity.  Breathe out compassion.

[ Parent ]
Nonsense (4.00 / 5)


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THIS IS WHAT FIRE DOES FOLKS.




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This is what DEMOLITION does.




Any questions.....




"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold, is for
people of good conscience to remain silent."
    --Thomas Jefferson


[ Parent ]
Not the same type of structure, nor the same height/width (0.00 / 0)
.... it's framed in concrete reinforced by steel.  The WTC buildings were steel framework.   And an airplane full of fuel didn't hit it at several hundred miles an hour, creating a tremendous impact fireball, if you are comparing it to Tower 1 or 2 fires.  No debris hit it from a nearby falling North Tower, if you are comparing it to the damaged WTC #7.   It was in Spain, with different building standards, and it did not have a sprinkler system at all.
http://911research.wtc7.net/wt...

I really don't see how anyone could compare 2 very different structures and fires, lacking the impact of the jetliners (which also blew debris around) and be seriously attempting to use it as "proof" of anything.  

Steel structure beams transmit heat.  Everybody is saying oh, it couldn't have melted the beams, that jet fuel and the WTC fire wasn't hot enough. It did not have to, it only had to weaken the support pins and burn the surroundings enough for failure.

The Madrid hotel was made of concrete, and brick encased in waffle slabs.  The flammable parts burnt.  The concrete and waffle brick framework mostly stayed intact. Brick isn't flammable, and won't transmit heat the way steel beams do.

from the pdf from the Japanese engineer who studied the aftermath of the 2005 Madrid Hotel Windsor fire. which had some partial failure of the top most stories where slabs fell off
it also has schematics and photos
http://ncdr.nat.gov.tw/iwerr/d...


the building was under renovation work of fire prevention systems when the fire occured. At the fire, the building had almost no spandrels at upper floors. The steel columns had almost no fire resistance covers at upper floors. But, lower floors had both of spandrels and fire resistance covers of the steel columns on almost all floors.
__
the fire occurred at 21st floor and spread to 17th floor due to the lack of fire prevention performance of outer walls. The collapse of columns by the heating of fire caused another fire spread.
___
The cause of the collapse can be considered that it had no sprinkler system, adequate fire protection for the steel columns and was lack of performance of the fire compartment of the wall.
____
the perimeter parts of upper stories collapsed and fell down

The 2005 Madrid Windsor hotel fire building, in other words, started on floor 21 and went upwards, and the exterior (perimeter) parts of the building on the top floors eventually peeled off like layers of an onion, which you can see if you look at the illustration photos in the pdf.  It also has at the bottom an extensive set of pictures of the aftermath, where you can see the inside of what was left.  

This is very different than how any of the WTC fires burnt, which were interior fires with the exteriors staying intact up until the collapses.  This is because of the design. I look at those buildings, or rather am almost forced to every year at this time,  and it is like watching a giant, disgusting chimney fire.  I dislike intensely doing it because of what is going on.  These are not just buildings going up. Those people deserve better, a better remembrance, than to be used for the sensationalism.

This is an interior blockquote from one of the comments on a site discussing different high rise building fires.


Early on the afternoon of September 11th 2001, following the collapse of WTC 1 & 2, I feared a collapse of WTC 7 as did many on my staff

The reasons are as follows:

1 - Although prior to that day high-rise structures had never collapsed, The collapse of WTC 1 & 2 showed that certain high-rise structures subjected to damage from impact and from fire will collapse.
2. The collapse of WTC 1 damaged portions of the lower floors of WTC 7.
3. WTC 7, we knew, was built on a small number of large columns providing an open Atrium on the lower levels.  

4. numerous fires on many floors of WTC 7 burned out of control without sufficient water supply to attack them.

For these reasons I made the decision as ranking fire officer, that decision was my responsibility, to clear a collapse zone surrounding the building and to stop all activity within that zone. Approximately three hours after that order was given, WTC 7 collapsed.

Dan Nigro
Chief of Department FDNY (Retired)

Well Thank God at least he had enough sense to clear people away from that, because the interior of the WTC building 7 was burning ferociously for hours, they had no way to get it under control,  and the open bottom would have made it go up like a damned tiki torch with the air getting sucked into it like a chimney opening.   YES, THE OPEN BOTTOM LIKE AN ATRIUM.


After the North Tower collapsed, some firefighters entered 7 World Trade Center to search the building. They attempted to extinguish small pockets of fire, but low water pressure hindered their efforts.[29] Fires burned into the afternoon on the 11th and 12th floors of 7 World Trade Center, the flames visible on the east side of the building.[30][31] During the afternoon, fire was also seen on floors 6-10, 13-14, 19-22, and 29-30.[4]
In particular, the fires on floors 7 through 9 and 11 through 13 continued to burn out of control during the afternoon.[32] At approximately 2:00 p.m., firefighters noticed a bulge in the southwest corner of 7 World Trade Center between the 10th and 13th floors, a sign that the building was unstable and might collapse.[33] During the afternoon, firefighters also heard creaking sounds coming from the building.[34]

Around 3:30 pm FDNY Chief Daniel Nigro decided to halt rescue operations, surface removal, and searches along the surface of the debris near 7 World Trade Center and evacuate the area due to concerns for the safety of personnel.[35] At 5:20:33 p.m. EDT on September 11, 2001, 7 World Trade Center started to collapse, with the crumble of the east mechanical penthouse, while at 5:21:10 p.m. EDT the entire building collapsed completely.[1] There were no casualties associated with the collapse.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7...

There are several mentions of the various news orgs prematurely announcing the collapse of building WTC #7.  Obviously the fire dept. was very concerned about the burning building, and telling them it was going to probably collapse at any time.   In the chaos, I doubt that whoever was reading the teleprompter and listening to their earpiece and was confused, looked at the live camera scene and said, wait, I think that building was still there.  This is one of the things that doesn't really prove anything CTish,  other than news reports screw up. It would also imply collusion with whomever supposedly blew up the buildings, and that's more hogwash.

In elementary boy and girl scout firebuilding, you learn to build campfires by creating a little framework twig suspension and then you light the tinder which is supposed to get the top going, but the principal is that you have a hollow space for air circulation.  In building woodstove fires, you can control the rate of burn by adjusting the dampers, but it is the same- to get more burn, to start, you open it up at the bottom because heat rises and fire needs a draft.  Building 7 had an open atrium at the bottom, had probably been hit from above by flying debris and had its roof punched open,  besides being damaged on the bottom by the collapse of the other Tower, and NOWHERE in any of this conspiracy claptrap have I seen this very basic info referred to, that the building was already severely fire damaged when it went down.

If there is nothing holding up the bottom anymore, things fall down.

To show a little video over and over again of a burnt out, damaged building with an intact exterior going down, and implying it had no damage beforehand, is blogging falling down.


[ Parent ]
Do you believe in miracles too? Or just try to sell others on them? (4.00 / 3)
Besides the fact that steel framed skyscrapers do not collapse from fires, no structure that does collapse from fire collapses in seconds straight down into it's own footprint all at once at free fall speed. They fall over sideways, slowly.

But then you've demonstrated here the past two days an extreme willingness to disregard or dismiss all logic and rational thinking about this and any presenting to you of any kind of evidence that contradicts and weakens the Bush / Cheney conspiracy theory that you appear to hold so dear, so actually believing in miracles and magical thinking would only be one tiny step from just trying your hardest to sell others on believing in miracles and magical thinking.

But then you did try yesterday selling fear of wingnuts as a good reason for people to embrace the Bush / Cheney conspiracy theory, too... and you'd need to believe in miracles to have any hope of selling that around here. ;-)


[ Parent ]
Nope, but to say that this newest "truther" website was a vast disappointment (0.00 / 0)
.... is an understatement.

"They fall over sideways, slowly" ?  lol

Yeah, like trees in a windstorm.  Sure.  Snork.                        

Not.  At least not when they are made that way.  Sorry, but it is what it is, and a bunch of mostly Saudi fanatics took them down, probably using the money we all spend on gasoline, and it was helpfully sent to them here in the USA with the help of Bandar's "Bush's" cousins.  


[ Parent ]
Are you an architect or an engineer (4.00 / 4)
or a physicist who has studied the collapses daily for years too? Or do you just have revealed knowledge that more than 1200 architects and engineers are not privy to?

What other of Bush and Cheney's stories do you have unquestioned faith in, and would like us to buy?


[ Parent ]
well, (0.00 / 0)
.... I have an associate's degree in design, have worked as a drafter and technical writer,  and we studied the collapse of other building components in some of the classes way back then as in "don't do this, because."  So I've actually spoken to egg heads about this sorta thing.

If I dropped you from a high enough height thru some thin enough plywood, you'd break thru, and take the supports holding up the plywood and anything else on the surface with you.  If there was another piece underneath, that would break, too, not from just the weight, but the increased force of the impact....  velocity x mass = force, remember all that good stuff.

There's a piece of steel girder from one of the towers here in Sacramento at a memorial. I've looked at it.  It's impossibly huge, about as high as I am tall, and it's maybe 20 feet long, just a segment. Try to imagine something the weight of a city bus being dropped on your ceiling, while your floor is on fire near your desk,  and tell me what happens and multiply it.

I really do not like those Tower buildings.  They had an exoskeleton and an inner core to suspend all the rest of the interior from.  The interior floors were never made to hold sh*t falling on them after the steel beams transferred all that heat to the bolts holding the floor up.  And obviously the "fire proofing" was lacking.  

People being angry and dismayed about everything that's gone wrong and will continue to go wrong thanks to Mr. Look Forward Never Back Now That I Have the Car Keys to the CIA & Homeland Security, still won't fix anything by telling us that airplanes did not hit those buildings and cause fires, explosions, and subsequent debris fall and failure.

I have a family member who had been before, and could have been in the building that day but was not, and we watched the buildings fall on television with quite a bit of anguish, so don't be too flippant.  I've picketed that sob Cheney in person, and probably have quite a file somewhere in snoopy security land.  I doubt I will see 'truth' in my lifetime.  

But why let the Republicans play me for a fool.  That seems to be a job the DNC is attempting to learn.  

 


[ Parent ]
an inner core to suspend all the rest of the interior from (4.00 / 3)
Which had to be cut for the buildings to collapse.

The Core Structures
The Structural System of the Twin Towers

Each tower was supported by a structural core extending from its bedrock foundation to its roof. The cores were rectangular pillars with numerous large columns and girders, measuring 87 feet by 133 feet. The core structures housed the elevators, stairs, and other services. The cores had their own flooring systems, which were structurally independent of the floor diaphragms that spanned the space between the cores and the perimeter walls. The core structures, like the perimeter wall structures, were 100 percent steel-framed.

The exact dimensions, arrangement, and number of the core columns remained somewhat mysterious until the publication of a leaked collection of detailed architectural drawings of the North Tower in 2007. Although the drawings show the dimensions and arrangement of core columns, they do not show other engineering details such as the core floor framing. It is clear from photographs, such as the one on the right, that the core columns were abundantly cross-braced.

You ignored my last question - which was not a rhetorical question, so I'll ask it again.

What other of Bush and Cheney's stories do you have unquestioned faith in, and would like us to buy? Just this one?


[ Parent ]
Nice Work Edger! (4.00 / 2)



"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold, is for
people of good conscience to remain silent."
    --Thomas Jefferson


[ Parent ]
I'm not going to bother looking for it... (4.00 / 3)
...but in one of her comments in one of the essays on this subject, she called the A&E 911 truth scientists something like (this is not a quote, but a good paraphrase from memory) ~~5th grade physics and science flunkies and dropouts~~.

She does have strong and incontrovertible opinions.  

Breathe in emptiness and luminosity.  Breathe out compassion.


[ Parent ]
bad, cheap design gets people killed, dharmasyd (0.00 / 0)
.... at least try to be accurate on the quotes, just as people have to follow the measurements and strengths and weaknesses of every physical thing their creations shall interact with.

All people here are doing is flashing me photos, wild theories, attempting to impugn my integrity,  and telling me all the debris they hauled away had "evidence" on it.    


[ Parent ]
no comment (0.00 / 0)


Breathe in emptiness and luminosity.  Breathe out compassion.

[ Parent ]
...no comment... (0.00 / 0)


Breathe in emptiness and luminosity.  Breathe out compassion.

[ Parent ]
...no comment... (0.00 / 0)


Breathe in emptiness and luminosity.  Breathe out compassion.

[ Parent ]
I have never, ever had any qualms about the realtiy! (4.00 / 5)
Just think, a new administration gets in, albeit, falsely, and nine months later, we were devastated by airplanes crashing into the WTC towers, and another, which was not even hit by an airplane?  We were being fed "guff" from the get-go -- it was a grand hoax on the Americans at the sufferance of their fellow citizenry.  

And still, people don't get it.  Partly, because there are those people who cannot fathom, believe that we could do such an evil thing from within the midsts of our own country.  

911 was a calculated incident, the magnitude of which we've never seen or experienced -- although, there have been other bizarre incidents over our pasts, such as the "deliberate" death of JFK, and many deaths of other country national leaders, etc. It represented an expansion of our many "evil" means and ways!

So many were "gagged" having to do with 911 -- particularly, the janitor, Rodriguez, and we've never been able to hear their stories, although, they were in the basements of the WTC and heard bombs/explosions.  See, for example just one effort to account here.  

"At his best, man is the noblest of all animals; separated from law and justice he is the worst."--Aristotle


you got it (4.00 / 6)
And still, people don't get it.  Partly, because there are those people who cannot fathom, believe that we could do such an evil thing from within the midsts of our own country.  

that's it exactly.
most people cannot conceive of this because they would never do such a thing themselves.
most people believe that others are just like them
this is just. not. so.

come firefly-dreaming with me..&..do no harm


[ Parent ]
ae911truth.org is down (4.00 / 2)
Interesting timing to have it go (or be taken?) down this morning...

http://www.ae911truth.org/, 5:50 AM PST

Database Error: Unable to connect to the database:Could not connect to MySQL


It's back up now... (4.00 / 2)


[ Parent ]
Winston Churchill (4.00 / 4)
"Men occasionally stumble on the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened."

-- Winston Churchill



The Gulf of Tonkin (4.00 / 3)
9/11 is a lot more spectacular, but less casualties and a war that can go on forever

Heretics, Communists, Terrorists, does it really matter?

Powerful,consolidated, political entities need enemies even if they don't actually have them. Really, there is no other reason to exist other than offering protection to the people in exchange for loyalty, sacrifice and some form of taxation.

We're hard wired for this. The easiest way to manipulate people is to scare them and then show them you're protecting them.

I think it was Throreau who talked about the herd mentality and their love for mass produced trivia. People can then cling to this shit and imagine they have something to protect when they really have nothing.



Yes, bigsurtree! (4.00 / 3)
Hasn't this all happened before?  

You create an ambiance of fear and culpability, and you have this, in return:

http://planetsmilies.net/angry-smiley-225.gif

We, in particular, have a very conformist society, so I can see it's one of easy manipulation.  

And, still, I don't see that people realize that they have been "suckered" into a whole process, which has absolutely NO regard for them at all!

I posted this elsewhere, bigsurtree -- far from eloquent, but I just point out some "realities" -- to take or not to take.  

Also, in the above post, I am absolutely awestruck by the "exercises that took place on that day, authorized by Cheney.  To me, that actually spells out that "we did it" (with consent by the Saudis) -- note 2nd and 3rd paragraphs -- are you trying to tell me THIS was coincidence???????  No, it seems to me that those military planes carrying out a so-called "simulation" of hijacking on the very day of 9/11 (assuming this article is true) were the planes (disguised) that did the very act.  Those paragraphs leave me with NO other conclusions, in view of the fact that no military ascended into the skies in search of "stray" or "misdirected" planes on that day.  

My opinion is that when "psychopaths" have an agenda -- they will find a way to pursue that agenda, no matter the level or the extreme.  

"At his best, man is the noblest of all animals; separated from law and justice he is the worst."--Aristotle


[ Parent ]
 

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