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Why Did Kucinich Cave In To Obama?

by: FreeSociety

Wed Mar 17, 2010 at 10:50:49 PDT        
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I am totally shocked by what has happened.

It had appeared that Dennis Kucinich had Obama worried, rather than the other way around.

It appeared with Obama and Kucinich "discussing" Health Care on Air Force 1 no less, that the opportunity existed where Obama might possibly consider making a concession or two, just to secure Kucinich's vote.

Suddenly, and sadly, Kucinich just gave in, and got absolutely nothing back in return.

While DKos, MoveOn.bored, and mainstream Democrats all publically threatened to oppose Kucinich and get their pay back and revenge on him, it is pretty well established that Kucinich is in a district which knows him well, and that re-elects him every two years -- whether or not he faces a Primary challenge. I can't see Kucinich caving just on something like empty "reelection" bluffs, hot air, and threats of this nature. Kucinich has been through all of that many times before and won the War.

Remember Dennis Kucinich is a guy who stared down the Bank Monopoly in Ohio before and won. He even faced an assassination attempt before and won.  This is a man not easily shaken. So why would Kucinich suddenly be so easily intimidated now?

What threat did Obama issue?  Black Ops?  Did his unconstitutional wiretapping program create or fabricate some embarrassing family story or personal smear?  Did Obama threaten Elizabeth Kucinich? Did Obama and Pelosi move to take away Kucinich's SubCommittee Chair (something they'd never do to Joe Lieberman)? Was Dennis Kucinich's life directly threatened?


FreeSociety :: Why Did Kucinich Cave In To Obama?


In his announcement today, Kucinich said absolutely nothing to endorse the bill on any its so-called "merits". He even condemned the bill, even as he stated simultaneously that he must submit a yes vote. This makes no sense. Clearly, some unusual, and possibly criminal personal threat was made here.

Dennis Kucinich never just backs down and says "oh well, never mind"...
It is also clear that the U.S. Senate had, and still has, 50 Senators willing to vote in favor of a public option, if the House sends it to them (which Nancy Pelosi has assured they won't at Obama's own request).

If the resistence and pressure from the Left had refused to back down, perhaps some improvements could've been made to an otherwise terribly bad, awful bill.

But nothing has changed. As Michael Moore pointed out, there is no true "ban on preexisting conditions". That talking-point is a complete falsehood.  First of all, the clause does not even kick in for 4 whole years, so the Insurance Companies can deny care and eligibility all that they want to for the next 4 whole years.  Secondly, when the clause does kick in, it only imposes just a very small penalty (a fine) if they reject people. So for an Insurance Company, it is going to be much cheaper for them to pay a simple $5000 fine, then it would ever be to cover a citizen with a health problem of any consequence (especially someone with a past cancer diagnosis).  So, this is all just a big lie. There is no "ban on pre-existing conditions".

The other completely false talking point is that" "the bill will get 30 million new people covered."  It does nothing of the kind.  All the bill does is to mandate that people write horribly expensive checks to the Insurance Monopolies, and become their victims and slaves -- with no choices and no options.  But no actual "care" is ever assured. The Insurance Companies set all the rules, and can continue to deny treatments, deny surgeries, deny tests, and even terminate your entire policy (for a small fine) if you get too expensive.

So the entire rationale for this bill that is being made by Obama, the Democrats in Congress, and even so-called "progressive" groups like MoveOn.dog   is a lie.

It's a LIE folks. But, unlike others who don't even bother to read the fine print, Dennis Kucinich knows all of this.

So why did he cave?





The Remarkable Depth Of Obama's Lies.







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What made Dennis Kucinich Cave?
Obama promised to campaign for his GOP challenger
Obama issued CIA death threat
Obama's warrentless wiretapping has some "dirt"
Obama threatened to kill Elizabeth (CIA)
The FBI put half a Horse in Kucinich's bed

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You can't handle the truth (4.00 / 18)


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"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold, is for
people of good conscience to remain silent."
    --Thomas Jefferson


My Looted Nation (4.00 / 2)


After watching Perkins' Apologies of an Economic Hitman, I think they threatened his life or his families.


"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold, is for
people of good conscience to remain silent."
    --Thomas Jefferson


[ Parent ]
That part is nonsensical (4.00 / 3)
I think they threatened his life or his families.

Kucinich is obviously quite used to threats.

That would be incredibly foolish of Obama, let alone likely to cause Kucinich to submit.

I happen to believe Kucinich when he says he responded to a threat to Obama's presidency.

I don't agree with the rationale but respect the integrity of Kucinich.

Best,  Terry



[ Parent ]
One for the gipper? (4.00 / 4)
Why?  Who cares if or why the gipper's presidency croaks?   If Obama wants to be successful, let him earn it just like everybody else.   With Democrats like these, we really shouldn't care who the hell is in office.  All I know is that I don't care why Obama or Dennis did what.  Fact is, they did; and I want my money back.  I am going to call Kucinich's office today and tell him just that.  

[ Parent ]
Understand (4.00 / 1)
Rahm's supporters are boasting that Rahm has proven absolutely that he was right, that the liberals would follow along like sheep.

I would have loved for Kucinich to kill the bill by his lonely heroics but it was not to be and I didn't expect it.

Best,  Terry


[ Parent ]
EMail message from Michael Moore (4.00 / 8)


"Within days, the House of Representatives will vote to pass the Senate health care "reform" bill. This bill is a joke. It has NOTHING to do with "health care reform."

It has EVERYTHING to do with lining the pockets of the health insurance industry. It forces, by law, every American who isn't old or destitute to buy health insurance if their boss doesn't provide it. What company wouldn't love the government forcing the public to buy that company's product?!

Imagine a bill that ordered every citizen to buy the extended warranty on all their appliances? Imagine a law that made it illegal not to own an iPhone? Or how 'bout I get a law passed that makes it compulsory for every American to go see my next movie? Woo-hoo! Who wouldn't love a sweet set-up like this windfall?"

     --Filmmaker Michael Moore






"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold, is for
people of good conscience to remain silent."
    --Thomas Jefferson


[ Parent ]
Yes, but Michael did go on to say he would vote for the bill (4.00 / 1)
because defeat will destroy Obama and that would leave us with nothing. Even Michael and Dennis can't stop drinking the Obama Kool Aid. Micahel said a while back, let's give Obama a chance, that was already after Obama's many betrayels starting with FISA on day one, but even now, even Michael, whose eyes are open, the scourge of Capitalism, can't stop supporting the hype! In the end, it's all politics, nothing more complicated than that. That accounts for the Progressive Caucus, Nancy Pelosi, Howard Dean, and even Rachel Maddow whose last few shows are unabashed, slanted cheerleading for HCR, or as Rachel would say: Yeah!  

[ Parent ]
Tell Me Another Pinnochio (4.00 / 3)



The Remarkable Depth Of Obama's Lies.




"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold, is for
people of good conscience to remain silent."
    --Thomas Jefferson


[ Parent ]
And we thought... (3.50 / 6)
...W was a masterful liar!  No contest.  Not even close.

I couldn't vote in the poll though.  I just can't tell why.

If ever a species deserved to be replaced, we do!   Isaac Asimov


[ Parent ]
Why did Bernie Sanders cave? (4.00 / 11)
We won't know all the details, but when push comes to shove--'our' guys always fall over.

What threat did Obama issue?  Black Ops?  Did his unconstitutional wiretapping program create or fabricate some embarrassing family story or personal smear?  Did Obama threaten Elizabeth Kucinich? Was Dennis Kucinich's life directly threatened?

All of these things are possible.  


I'm surprised at Sanders as well. (4.00 / 10)
And, as an Independent, he doesn't really even to answer to Harry Reid.


"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold, is for
people of good conscience to remain silent."
    --Thomas Jefferson


[ Parent ]
It's not about parties--they all have to answer to their masters, (4.00 / 5)
who are actually a fairly diverse bunch, from several different industries.  There are no parties really, as far as issues are concerned, they only exist in competition for the trickle down from lobbyists.


[ Parent ]
Not exactly true (4.00 / 5)
He does caucus with the Democrats and I feel for the man a bit - he has to walk a thin line between being powerful and compromising and being a bit more uncompromising and being powerless.

Vote for yourself at www.ni4d.org!

[ Parent ]
At least Sanders got a few concessions (4.00 / 5)
That's more than Kucinich can say.

Vote for yourself at www.ni4d.org!

[ Parent ]
The power of being an independent... (4.00 / 4)
is that you don't have to rely on a party machine for your campaign funding and organization.

So Bernie has leverage where Kucinich doesn't.

Free Gaza.


[ Parent ]
Maybe, but how do you explain that he caved first then? (4.00 / 2)
See, the fact is that the US does not have a democracy at all.

Once people start from that fact, then the rest becomes clear.  


[ Parent ]
He 'caved' first... (4.00 / 1)
because that was the right time to maximize his leverage.

Bernie as the 60th vote is a lot more important than when the Dems only require 50 Senate votes, as they do now.

If Bernie had waited simply for the notoriety of being the last man standing, he wouldn't have gotten nearly as much as he did, which by any measure was substantial.


Free Gaza.


[ Parent ]
Update: One Explanation... (4.00 / 12)


So Kucinich made these remarks today, but they still make no real sense:

"We have to be very careful that the potential of President Obama's presidency not be destroyed by this debate. And I feel, even though I have many differences with him on policy, there's something much bigger at stake here for America."

      --Congressman Dennis Kucinich



What is being destroyed here is the position of the progressive Left, and what is being protected (aggressively by Obama himself at each and every turn) is the Insurance Monopoly/Pharma Monopoly position.

The debate has been abysmal precisely because of the hard line where Obama himself preemptively set the debate. No choice. No cost control. Mandates on abusive subservitude to the Insurance Monopoly. No actual health care assured. And a stubborn determination to block and bury any momentum on behalf of Medicare expansion, Medicare buy-in, Public option, or easing laws on States to allow them to experiment.

The success of Obama's Presidency therefore is irrelevant to any forward movement on Health Care. Obama has staked out his ground and pick the winners (Insurance, BigPharma) and losers (the people who now have to face IRS arrest, while getting only a broken system).

I don't see "what is bigger at stake for America" by getting in line to support this total ripoff and policy hypocrisy and madness.

Obama himself doomed the whole Obama presidency, by casting his lot with the Corporations, the Bush administration on War/Terror/"Justice"/CIA corruption, and shutting down all the grassroots supporters and energy that got him elected.

That was his choice.
That is the side (Establishment) that Obama is fighting for.

There is therefore nothing to protect here.





"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold, is for
people of good conscience to remain silent."
    --Thomas Jefferson


sobbing and weeping, Obama begs to be rescued? (4.00 / 4)
Dennis is that stupid?   If the man gave a damn about his Presidency, he wouldn't be selling this pile of shit.  

[ Parent ]
I no longer care about saving Obama's presidency. Seems to me this turncoat deserves what he's earned: (4.00 / 6)
4 and out.

[ Parent ]
Exactly (4.00 / 5)
There simply is nothing to save folks.


"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold, is for
people of good conscience to remain silent."
    --Thomas Jefferson


[ Parent ]
Obama probably (4.00 / 10)
explained that he's such a f'up that the Dems are likely to get rolled in 2010 and 2012 without Obamacare getting passed, and that the 30 million who supposedly get covered will be so greatful that they'll vote for Dems forever.

Which only works if people don't find out that it actually is a pretty worthless bill.

Wheeeeee....

I think I'm gonna change my sig.

"The oppressed are allowed once every few years to decide which particular representatives of the oppressing class are to represent and repress them." - V.I. Lenin


Guess they are all the same. (4.00 / 3)
Everything is more important than the people that elect them.  

[ Parent ]
Because at some point (4.00 / 12)
You have to make yourself relevant.

And if you never compromise you are not relevant.

He made Obama court him, you do not know what he got, and next time Obama is forced to court him he will get more.

Kucinich as a relevant force is good. Kucinich ignored as 'an obstructionist' is irrelevant.

It's called politics.

Reality is the result of war between two rival groups of programmers,

so....Roar Louder!!!


Obama did not court him (4.00 / 11)


Obama threatened him. Big difference.

He had a pre-planned MoveOn.org picket demonstration (of considerable size) organized in advance right outside Kucinich's campaign headquarters in Ohio.

Then he publically embarassed Kucinich at a rally in Ohio, by having a plant yell out right on cue "Vote Yes" when Obama announced his name.

There was no "courting" that I saw, only public attacks of one sort or another made on Kucinich.

But just like Joe Lieberman (who Obama does court), Dennis Kucinich would remain relevant only by requiring movement in his direction first before agreeing to a vote.

Lieberman is always relevant because he always says no to progressive legislation and won't budge until it is dropped.

Caving in is what makes you irrelevant.
Not forcing a policy change by saying "no dice" until you get it in writing.




"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold, is for
people of good conscience to remain silent."
    --Thomas Jefferson


[ Parent ]
ok (4.00 / 1)


Reality is the result of war between two rival groups of programmers,

so....Roar Louder!!!


[ Parent ]
Lieberman is a Senator who doesn't have to answer to anyone (4.00 / 3)
....  because he's figured out how to work the system to the maximum, playing one party against the other,  courting the wealthiest donors in this country, (see all the donations he's gotten from banks that subsequently failed)  can always shield himself from criticism by playing the bigotry card, and he has a much longer term in office.

Yet if you suggest that Obama "courts" him you have the pc people scream at you that you're a racist and a bigot.

Okay. Obama does not court him.   Obama may have studied him, while being mentored by him in the Senate, and is emulating his behavior.  

One out of 59 vs. one out of 253, much greater political impact for a single Senator.

My theory is that Kucinich thinks the bill might fail anyway, even with his vote, so it's safer to agree to support it at this point.


[ Parent ]
The most logical play. (4.00 / 3)
My theory is that Kucinich thinks the bill might fail anyway, even with his vote, so it's safer to agree to support it at this point.

Why should Dennis become the scapegoat who killed Obamacare when Bart Stupak is tailor made for the role?

Logical, that is, if you are content in your role as backbenching gadfly without any pretensions of ever having any real influence.



Free Gaza.


[ Parent ]
Threatened would be more like Obama's style... (4.00 / 1)
If I were Kucinich, I'd have to change my mind again - say the day before the vote.  

[ Parent ]
the sad and painful thing for me (4.00 / 3)
watching yet another succumb to this kind of comprising, an act that is surely one of the root causes of our problems. we compromised in our support of democrats in 2008 because the other choices were unbearable.

well, i'm not so cock sure about the "lesser of two evils" thing.

i'm also pretty sure that politics, as we knew it or thought we knew it, does not exist anymore. at some point, that has to be faced and some retooling needs to happen.

before the 2008 election, i wrote an essay here called, urgent: state house races are key:

In my view, local politics is what will change America. Not more and better Democrats in Congress or even in the White House. The revolution will come, as it did for the Republicans in the 1990s, from our school boards, planning boards, town councils, and in our state houses.

Public Policy:  It's not just the economy, stupid. It is about values. It isn't just the way we approach "gay" marriage/abortion/prayer in school. It's not just saving polar bears and wood morels. It is as much about the value we claim in the soundness of our manufacturing processes/professional services/and public service. Who drives the demand for these kinds of values: an integrity in what we make, in our ability to be sound advisors, lawyers, doctors, and yes, even politicians.

When does integrity beat out greed and self interest? When does value make a comeback?

Perhaps when citizens, not as Democrats or Republicans, take back control of local and state governments. When using the word Democrat is only a general description on how one solves problems... not loyalty to a brand. No. Somewhere in all this craziness, we've lost being faithful, giving value to our citizenship... demanding presidents shed party once they take office and become AMERICAN presidents.

How can we protect the civil liberties of our citizens and our environment without some control of local politics...  so that we can wield that power to inform state policies... in order to push back at federal politicians and courts. How do we gather power to protect things like our water (and keep it from being privatized), as well as insure the rights of ALL of our citizens to marry, have fair and equitable access to employment and benefits, education, and even service in the military if they are willing and able...

We need more and better citizens finding consensus and making decisions based on common good to take back our zoning and planning boards, on our school boards and township committees, and in our state houses.

I hope that we begin to pull away from the old way of thinking and the old compromises. Instead of fighting the old ways, we could start forging the new ones. Maybe the Coffee Party will coalesce and form its own blog and Coffee Party will become the new Daily Kos. A place without censors or old political agendas...

Dennis should never have caved. It doesn't make him relevant to me. It just makes him another one of them.

Well the first man comes along that can read Latin is welcome to rob us, far as I'm concerned. I'd like a chance t' shoot at a educated man once in my life. Gus McCrae, Lonesome Dove


[ Parent ]
The coffee party is a bogus (4.00 / 12)
astroturf branch of OFP. A politer version of the dkos supporters. It's mission seems to be neutering the left and calling 'obstruction' uncivil. All about meeting in the middle and discovering that citizenship is getting along and letting Obama fix the broken politics. I can't see Elise or Cedwyn sitting around getting cosy with either the teabaggers or the democratic progressive end of the party.    

[ Parent ]
well then (4.00 / 4)
what do we want?

what are we doing about it? calling compromise being relevant?

we have to start somewhere. from what I read, the coffee party wants to get coalitions of people, regardless of party.

there is nothing wrong with civility. and decency. the lack of it has shattered our world.

that it is bogus remains to be seen. but from what i've seen, dKos is just another democratic party arm.

and we all know just how much the dems are advocating for the common good: NOT.

Well the first man comes along that can read Latin is welcome to rob us, far as I'm concerned. I'd like a chance t' shoot at a educated man once in my life. Gus McCrae, Lonesome Dove


[ Parent ]
Withhold your favors... (4.00 / 6)
No money, no vote.  Let em die.  

[ Parent ]
And whenever possible and practical... (4.00 / 5)
vote for candidates outside one of the two major parties.
 

Free Gaza.

[ Parent ]
I don't think lack of civility (4.00 / 5)
has shattered our world. Obama is plenty civil, so are a lot of hypocritical liberal types. There is nothing civil about war, torturing, lying, lawlessness, corruption or crisis capitalism  to mention a few of the indecencies were dealing with. I may be wrong but this 'grassroots' movement looks to me to be a Pouffle concoction to calm the angry populist sentiment on the left and the disillusionment that is occurring outside the gates of the party loyalists and a counteraction to the tea party. The founder really creeps me out. It is Obama message that we should all unite behind the common cause that is by-partisan and talk about co-operation instead of being extremist lefties. She advocates co-operation between our government whatever that means, by-partisan?
It seems to me it's goal is to deflect the outrage and blame it on the people who need to trust the democratic process and be civil to the pols instead of obstructing them. I do not trust this, this is exactly what I heard at the indoctrination meetings I went to when I was working for the Obama campaign. Addressing differences in policy and issues was verboten. The problems were cast as an inability to 'meet in the middle' and compromise or properly address our elected officials. They do not want to demonize the federal government and are looking for issues to advocate lol. but first they need to learn how to meet in the middle and make signs that are civil.

'Annabel Park: We are purely grassroots movement, independent of any party, corporation, or lobbying organization. That is our strength and we plan to use it to facilitate a collaborative process that would encourage people to come together as a community, checking party affiliation at the door.

Many of the people who have found refuge in the Coffee Party community are among the 53% of America who supported candidate Obama's vision for our nation's future. They are disconcerted by the vision that is being expressed through some of the Tea Party activities and some of their leaders' statements. But we do have a number of Republicans and many, many independents who reject what they see as the politics of division and obstructionism.'

Do you think Obama should let his inner community organizer come out a bit more?

'I don't know what Obama should do exactly other than to keep pointing out the opposition's tactics and communicate directly to people. I personally think that he may be a good driver and I see him trying, but the fact is we are asking him to drive a broken car.' A Parks.

Check it out make up your own mind but like The Mom Cat says I'm not ready to make nice. I don't like this group of zombies telling me that I should learn to be a better citizen by not obstructing and being civil to crazy people and criminal pols. On HRC, she says the reason even though 70% want the PO that the pols have rejected this is because they are confused about what their constituents really want or mean. Like the bots they do not address the polls that are quite clear instead they drag out the obstructionist bs. Confused pols heh? gimme a break. they seem to be going after the younguns' who are withdrawing from the process after Obama burned them.

     


[ Parent ]
not about nice (0.00 / 0)
but working it out. anger doesn't get it done. hasn't worked yet, has it?

coalitions. peace. breaking barriers down. i'm not opposed to those who still think Obama is one of the good guys. changing that is not my priority in the interaction. but if we can find some way of really making our lives better, things become self evident. those who advocate for us and those who just mouth the words.

the priority is to reach agreement on magnitude of problems and, rather than fight against their perception of Obama et al, see if we can agree that citizens need to be in the game at local/regional/state levels.

we can not stop the thugs by fighting them. we can only live our lives and decide, in our day-to-day, how to understand value and express it socially.

that impacts our laws and behaviors. it's easier, in my mind, to leave Obama out of it but agree not to pay insurance bills of any kind for 2 months. some mass protest where we can SEE the impact. measure it. see that we are, in fact, a constituency.

we have become fat and lazy and forgotten how to flex our collective muscle.

i don't want to keep shouting about glenn beck or sarah palin. i want to steer away and put them in a void generated by our collective silence and indifference.

move in our stream instead of always moving against the tides created by others.

the coffee party may be a good model to get us started. not perfect and ultimately not where we end up... but we have to start.



Well the first man comes along that can read Latin is welcome to rob us, far as I'm concerned. I'd like a chance t' shoot at a educated man once in my life. Gus McCrae, Lonesome Dove


[ Parent ]
coming from you (0.00 / 0)
this is weak...

g.

Listen to The Wild Wild Left on internet talk radio



[ Parent ]
yes it is (4.00 / 3)
But since the PO was dead in October and everything since then that Progressives have done is the best kind of political theater.....

I am just fine with pulling what few wins we can out of all this weak shit. Even though that does make me weak too.

At some point you have to try to salvage something out of defeat

Reality is the result of war between two rival groups of programmers,

so....Roar Louder!!!


[ Parent ]
Yabbut is nothing even worse? (4.00 / 9)
Right now me not paying money to the insurance companies (I choose to, for catastrophic issues, even though I have no faith my junk insurance will be honored if the time comes) this is Democrats forcing at the tip of a government mandate barrel to pay money to people they HATE.

Now, for me, this is visceral.  This is enraging, but I don't think I speak for many people -- certainly not anywhere close to a huge bloc of voters.  But I do think there are a certain number of people who think as I do -- a small, perhaps crucially important sliver, politically.

You could disagree, and say that for many people this will result in significant advantages.  Me, I don't see it -- what I see are talking points in favor that don't mesh with reality.  But these are differences of opinion.

But if it doesn't actually succeed in doing that, and what instead it does is doesn't help most people and enrages quite a few more, a number of those progressives like me, how is that a political victory for the Democrats?

I think that in the best case, this will piss off about 10% of the progressives and liberals into not voting for Democrats again (me among them) while gaining almost no more votes from any other bloc.  For me this is vote destroying, not just for the bad Democrats, but for everyone who votes for this and even some who didn't.

Tommyknockers, Tommyknockers, knocking at the door


[ Parent ]
It completely sucks (4.00 / 6)
There are at most four or five good things compared to perhaps hundreds of bad things.

But again, we lost.

I for one am used to that after 40 yrs of fighting for lost causes.

So strategically speaking it's time to salvage what we can, then get back up and start fighting again.

Reality is the result of war between two rival groups of programmers,

so....Roar Louder!!!


[ Parent ]
Ok sure. Vote wise, though, what I am going to be doing if they (4.00 / 6)
pass this and don't fix it will be punishing the Democrats for multiple electoral cycles.  Not a single one of them will get any of my votes at any level until and unless they fix it, or my rage about it peters out, LOL.  Not one cent, not one vote, for any of them.  I'm at a "your fault, my fault, nobody's fault" place with this and ready to express my anger at the voting booth.  Or not.  Every single Democrat everywhere they exist will pay a price for this.

Fighting being distinct from voting.

Tommyknockers, Tommyknockers, knocking at the door


[ Parent ]
Yeah howdy. (4.00 / 4)
Fuck you assholes.

"I like irony except I find that if you just toss your clothes in the dryer for a few minutes you hardly ever have to use it."- ek hornbeck

[ Parent ]
I'm worried for what this means (0.00 / 0)
for state single payer.  Hopefully the organizations promoting it are right and it won't violate ERISA.  And hopefully Sestak and Specter keep their word and work, after the health insurance bill passes, to change ERISA.  They should get some help from Kucinich...

Vote for yourself at www.ni4d.org!

[ Parent ]
They have 9 months. (4.00 / 2)
I suggest they use them wisely.

Tommyknockers, Tommyknockers, knocking at the door

[ Parent ]
ERISA's in place now (0.00 / 0)
The health bill was just a chance to change it.

Vote for yourself at www.ni4d.org!

[ Parent ]
Well, it's really simple. (4.00 / 6)
If, in November, there are mandates, and no public option, I will not be a Democrat anymore.  More, I will attack Democrats and not a single one, anywhere, will get my support.  This is what I mean by "they have 9 months, I suggest they use them wisely."

I think I am not alone.  This bill without doing something to really fix health care is more foolhardy, I think, than anyone can possibly imagine.  The Democrats will be swept out of office in a wave, and there will be no tomorrow, because the Republicans will get into office and basically cause Armageddon, LOL.  

Technical fixes and minutia will not work, and even if I'm wrong, even if enough Democrats remain in office to have any kind of majority, it's not going to get better over time -- it'll get worse.

The time of the technocratic Democrat, with their little boxes of tools and their technical fixes, is over.  Now they either do the job they were elected to do, or face political elimination, it's just that simple.

Tommyknockers, Tommyknockers, knocking at the door


[ Parent ]
I misunderstood (4.00 / 1)
I thought you meant the people in PA had nine months.

Vote for yourself at www.ni4d.org!

[ Parent ]
No, the status quo is better than this pile... (4.00 / 3)
We already spend more money than anybody else, what will spending more than that accomplish?   Obama had me convinced to never vote for Democrats again before this bill.  Now, I won't even support Sander and Kucinich.   I am one of your 10%, and I'm going third party.  

[ Parent ]
I suppose it's like saying (4.00 / 7)
Yeah, the Iraq war was based upon lies, and is immoral, illegal and irresponsible, but now we're there let's get those Hummers some armor...

THIS.IS.NOT.A.WIN...

bless you always and you do rock, but come on...now the extinct left doesn't even have a protest vote.

As far as Denny...other than the horse's head in the bed, this is unfathomable.

peace,

g.

Listen to The Wild Wild Left on internet talk radio



[ Parent ]
what wins come out of this? (4.00 / 4)
it kills the progressive movement and makes winners out the liars and bamboozler's and corporatists. They are dancing on our grave celebrating their victory of the enemy of their good. It makes all voting useless. A front pager on dkos told me today that the base supports reform according to whatever poll he was waving about. When asked if they preferred keeping the old system or reform they chose reform. Well duh, who doesn't. When I said this is a false choice and bait and switch he said

'it's exactly the choices you get when you vote
because at some point it becomes binary - yes or no,. and no, you don't have to like it. But yes, you have to vote. See Dennis kucinich....... When all else fails, adjust your expectations and don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good, whatever you decide to do.'

He also said you lost we won. I do not believe this. It is a false choice and Dennis is making it knowing full well it's false. Compromise that is a lie is not compromise in this case it's blackmail and extortian. Your choices are vote yes for reform that is not reform or no and you support the Republicans and mushroom clouds of bankers will fall on you. Please gimme a break. False choice not even binary, simple bait and switch.  

Nobody wins from this but the corporate extortionists and the pols they sponsor. I have absolutely no idea why Kucinich would flip. Maybe he doesn't want Palin for pres. Me I don't give a rats ass anymore the Democrats win is as false as the voting is. I'm now a spoiler, and hell has no fury like a scorned and taunted woman. I will work as hard to bring them down including Dennis as I did to get them in power. I am not limited to a binary system that is routed through a maze of false choice. I am now a believer in being the enemy of the good, they convinced me this is my only choice. They will not win long term as their arrogance forgets that people get to a point where they have nothing to lose by saying no!    
         


[ Parent ]
You are not weak because you're self aware and not following (4.00 / 2)
.... the people who are dead wrong on this, down the rabbit hole and making up ridiculous, untrue crap trying to pretend it's great.

If the bill gets passed, does not get repaired over the next few years, and really is awful, leaves out 30 or 50 million or even more, lets premiums skyrocket, forces everyone into the crappiest HMOs so efficiency shuts down, more people die,  and the impact it has in the real world hastens the entire health care system crashing, (a possibility....  )  it might be then a motivation for more people to actually DEMAND and succeed in doing something different.

Because right now, we apparently are not at critical mass for real change yet.

I believe that would be called "concern trolling" on another website.  Knowing what I do now,  how they did this backroom deal in advance, I would love to see these jerks try to debate why this was a better tactic-

they can't.  They lose that argument.  So they have to resort enemies lists trying to harass people off a blog.  Hilarious. Pathetic.

We could end up with a one term President out of this.  Oh well.   So many of these politicians are going to age out of Congress in the next few years that we can't see what the future looks like.  But I know what side I want to be on, and it's not the side that the DC Beltway powers are taking on this, if they are using as their first consideration how much profit does a private company make off of the sick and dying person's illnesses.

Verses how much real health care can we get people access to.  

Until and if any bill is passed, I consider them to be in play, just as I consider an election not over until the votes are counted, and you always go for the win, because sometimes the other side screws up.  


[ Parent ]
I agree with buhdy! (4.00 / 1)
...sending ponies!

If ever a species deserved to be replaced, we do!   Isaac Asimov

[ Parent ]
I'm just surprised (4.00 / 4)
that he conceded without concessions.  What made him do it in the end?  That's what I want to know.  David Swanson, who knows Kucinich from working on his presidential campaign, postulates:

I don't think Kucinich flipped because of money, either direct "contributions" or money through the Democratic Party. I think, on the contrary, he hurt himself financially by letting down his supporters across the country. I don't think he caved into the power of party or presidency directly. I don't think they threatened to back a challenger or strip his subcommittee chair or block his bills, although all of that might have followed. I think the corporate media has instilled in people the idea that presidents should make laws and that the current president is trying to make a law that can reasonably be called "healthcare reform" or at least "health insurance reform."

http://www.opednews.com/articl...

Vote for yourself at www.ni4d.org!


[ Parent ]
Except that Kucinich never followed the BigMedia narrative before (4.00 / 3)


Remember Kucinich was the guy who even brought Impeachment charges against both Dick Cheney and George Bush.

So something else is going on here.

Kucinich always buck the Media narrative.  His whole life is the opposite of the Beltway/Media narrative of U.S. Politics.

If he wasn't afraid of Cheney and Bush (two guys who are deep CIA operatives, and have deep ties to criminal networks), why then is he afraid of Barry ORahmObama --- a man who is a capitulator by nature?

Something else is going on here.





"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold, is for
people of good conscience to remain silent."
    --Thomas Jefferson


[ Parent ]
Maybe (4.00 / 2)
Maybe not.  We have no idea of knowing.

Vote for yourself at www.ni4d.org!

[ Parent ]
Swanson says more on that (4.00 / 5)
I think he makes some good points.

Kucinich was to be blamed for denying people healthcare by opposing a bill that makes the healthcare system worse. Now he'll be credited with helping to provide people with healthcare, even though he's done the opposite. I think he gave in to the power of a false narrative, and that he ought to have said so. When Kucinich fought with us for impeachment, and John Conyers refused to act, Conyers admitted that his greatest fear was of media hostility. When Kucinich pushes to end wars, other congress members tell us they cannot afford to challenge media nonsense about "supporting the troops." The corporate media now run our government, and need to be called out.  link

Bucking up against Bushco, the evilest ever Repubs, is very different, esp in the media paint, from bucking up against BHO, the most wonderfulest charismatic DEM ever (who also happens to be the first AA Prez too).  For DK to be against Bush, well of course he would do that, he's an elf-y hippie right? But... BHO? THAT would be way more than elf-hippie, he'd be painted (already has been at GOS) as a traitor, a lunatic, and a racist.

Its all such total bullshit. I dont know what happened but its just all theater anyway.

"When you realize how perfect everything is you will tilt your head back and laugh at the sky" Buddha


[ Parent ]
And so how does compromising all the time work out for you? (4.00 / 6)
If you don't stand for something, you will stand for anything.

Name a single victory.

Just one.

Excise Tax?

Gone to meet reconciliation.

Insurance Oversight?

Not relevant, ruled out by the Parlimentarian.

Women's Reproductive Rights?

Sold out to Stupak and Nelson.

This bill does NOTHING AT ALL except give $500 Billion in Corporate Welfare to Insurance Companies (of which they get to skim $100 Billion off the top) and make EVERYONE'S Insurance Crappy Catastrophic Insurance WHILE FORCING EVERYONE TO GIVE 2.5% OF THEIR PAYCHECK TO INSURANCE COMPANIES (and that's if you're an OUTLAW, you want to be a law abiding citizen, they're permitted to extort up to 20%)!

THIS BILL IS THE WORST RIPOFF OF TAXPAYERS EVER (except for the TRILLIONS Barack Hussein Obama gave the Banksters)!

Thank you Barack Hussein Obama and the Democratic Party.

Thanks for NOTHING!

I'm voting Linda McMahon.

Barack Hussein Obama makes Pro Wrestling look legitimate by comparison.

"I like irony except I find that if you just toss your clothes in the dryer for a few minutes you hardly ever have to use it."- ek hornbeck


[ Parent ]
Bernies' health care centers (0.00 / 0)
and potential ERISA waivers (although the latter is barely a victory).  Preexisting conditions stuff, although that's very weak and the effect of it has yet to be seen.  Um, I'm not sure.

Vote for yourself at www.ni4d.org!

[ Parent ]
Pfft. (4.00 / 5)
$10 Billion for Clinics to buy $100 Billion in Bonuses.

The waivers are a delusion, just like regulation.

Pre-existing conditons come at a 300% Premium.

Garbage.  You'll have to try harder than that.

"I like irony except I find that if you just toss your clothes in the dryer for a few minutes you hardly ever have to use it."- ek hornbeck


[ Parent ]
What is so good about it? (4.00 / 5)
Free clinics could have easily been put into a budget bill

There pre-existing conditions requirement is another lie.

The excise tax deal with Labor may be thrown out to close the gap to satisfy the CBO.

The problem is that bill has little good in it to counter all the harm it will do.  

"By the pricking of my thumb, something wicked this way comes.", Wm. Shakespeare, "Macbeth"


[ Parent ]
Good for who? (4.00 / 4)
if you're a politician you first think of how it will affect your reelection, then how it will affect your party, then your donors, then your committee positions, etc. all before you think of the people.


"I like irony except I find that if you just toss your clothes in the dryer for a few minutes you hardly ever have to use it."- ek hornbeck

[ Parent ]
For Sanders (0.00 / 0)
and the people who will go to the clinics.  Look, I'm not in favor of this bill, but I'm not convinced its 100% pure evil either.

Vote for yourself at www.ni4d.org!

[ Parent ]
Not so much. (4.00 / 4)
Sanders looks like a sell-out.

Have you been to a clinic?  $10 Billion is a drop in the bucket.

Have you been on a $100 Million yacht bought with a bonus?

I've been to both.

On the yacht I pissed on the $100,000 Persian Carpet.

"I like irony except I find that if you just toss your clothes in the dryer for a few minutes you hardly ever have to use it."- ek hornbeck


[ Parent ]
You are just evil. ;-) (4.00 / 5)
Think of the poor peasant who made that rug.

"By the pricking of my thumb, something wicked this way comes.", Wm. Shakespeare, "Macbeth"

[ Parent ]
Think of the dry cleaner... (4.00 / 3)
who made some money off my revolutionary act.

When I say "don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining" I'm not kidding.

I don't kid about things like that.

"I like irony except I find that if you just toss your clothes in the dryer for a few minutes you hardly ever have to use it."- ek hornbeck


[ Parent ]
It's a dirty job (4.00 / 2)
Somebody's gotta do it.

"By the pricking of my thumb, something wicked this way comes.", Wm. Shakespeare, "Macbeth"

[ Parent ]
90% evil (4.00 / 5)
and that would negate any good that a few free clinics will bring. How far will $10 billion go and how many will it actually treat?  I've done budgeting proposals at a city hospital, believe $10 billion will not go very far or cover very many. Those clinics will not take care of 45 million who have no insurance or can't afford it.


"By the pricking of my thumb, something wicked this way comes.", Wm. Shakespeare, "Macbeth"

[ Parent ]
And it sells out Women's Reproductive Rights! (4.00 / 3)
How close do you have to get to pure evil rossl before you open your eyes and admit what you're seeing?

"I like irony except I find that if you just toss your clothes in the dryer for a few minutes you hardly ever have to use it."- ek hornbeck

[ Parent ]
I'm not exactly a friggin' blue dog! (4.00 / 3)
I'm just not trying to be too emotional about it.  And before someone tells me that it's worth getting emotional about, I have plenty of things to be emotional about!

Vote for yourself at www.ni4d.org!

[ Parent ]
We know you're not a blue dog (4.00 / 1)
Some of us invested quite a bit in terms of time, money and emotion trying to get a really good bill with a strong public option that really regulated the insurance companies. There are those of us who expected better from the progressives in Congress. We are really disappointed with them and this hand out to the health insurance and pharmaceutical companies that does so little to really reform health care.
You'll have to excuse us if we get a little passionate.

"By the pricking of my thumb, something wicked this way comes.", Wm. Shakespeare, "Macbeth"

[ Parent ]
There's nothing wrong with passion, obviously (4.00 / 1)
I'm just honestly trying to find something good about this bill.  And again being honest people like us (I am including myself) sometimes tend to focus on the pessimistic side of things like this.  Perhaps there are a few good things in the bill...I don't really know.

Vote for yourself at www.ni4d.org!

[ Parent ]
The free clinics funding is good (4.00 / 1)
but it doesn't go far enough and is far short on funding. Considering the rest of this bill, it could have beeen easily put into another appropriations bill.

 I read Greenwald this  morning and his analysis of why the progressives consistently lose fights for their agenda, regardless of what party is the White House. It led me to TalkLeft and what Armando said on the subject. The progressives (read also left) are not willing to go to the wall for what they want. They were not willing to kill this bill for their agenda while the blue dogs and Republicans are.. Why do you think Stupak, Nelson and Baucus, et al got what they wanted? Why do you think Lieberman got all the compromises tossed? They were willing to kill this bill. I don't know what Obama wanted he never send a clear message. Whatever it was, what we may get stinks.

I have been in involves in negotiating contracts and deals, you have to ask for what you want and stand your ground. I look at the diaries and comments in GOS and I am amazed at the willingness to give up and just accept this bill.

"By the pricking of my thumb, something wicked this way comes.", Wm. Shakespeare, "Macbeth"


[ Parent ]
Oh and... (4.00 / 6)
there is NO limit on lifetime or yearly caps and NO enforcement on recission.

WORSE than the status quo!

"I like irony except I find that if you just toss your clothes in the dryer for a few minutes you hardly ever have to use it."- ek hornbeck


[ Parent ]
There is no ban on pre-existing conditions (4.00 / 8)
It has to be one the big lies that is being touted
FreeSociety point that out:

But nothing has changed. As Michael Moore pointed out, there is no true "ban on preexisting conditions". That talking-point is a complete falsehood.  First of all, the clause does not even kick in for 4 whole years, so the Insurance Companies can deny care and eligibility all that they want to for the next 4 whole years.  Secondly, when the clause does kick in, it only imposes just a very small penalty (a fine) if they reject people. So for an Insurance Company, it is going to be much cheaper for them to pay a simple $5000 fine, then it would ever be to cover a citizen with a health problem of any consequence (especially someone with a past cancer diagnosis).  So, this is all just a big lie. There is no "ban on pre-existing conditions".

The other lie is that it will reduce premiums, no, it will slow down increases but reduce. NO

ACT CHECK: Obama plan only slows premiums rise

"By the pricking of my thumb, something wicked this way comes.", Wm. Shakespeare, "Macbeth"


[ Parent ]
What it boils down to is that (4.00 / 4)
we as progressives have no representation in Washington.  None.  Even the ones like Kucinich and Sanders care more about protecting their own interests than in standing up for ours.  Sanders calls himself an independent, but he's a Democrat in everything but name.  He's better than most, but still at his core a politician, not a leader.  Same with Kucinich.  They put their own interests first, the interests of their political donors second, the interests of the political racket party they belong to third, and our interests dead last.

- 7.12, - 7.54 / AOTME / Twitter / Facebook

I tend to give these progressives (4.00 / 4)
the benefit of the doubt.  They seem about as honest and well intentioned as it gets.  Unfortunately, they're operating in a system (Sanders, especially, since he's not even a Democrat) completely turned against them.

However, there's also a lot of truth to what you're saying.

If you're a citizen, you have to know the difference between them and you-the difference between what they have to do and what you have to do. And there are things they don't have to do, if you make it clear to them they don't have to do it.

--Howard Zinn

http://www.progressive.org/zin...

There's also this Mike Gravel quote I was looking for but couldn't find...basically, if you're a politician you first think of how it will affect your reelection, then how it will affect your party, then your donors, then your committee positions, etc. all before you think of the people.  Gravel has said a lot that there's a corrupting influence on anyone when you're in a position of power like the Senate.

Vote for yourself at www.ni4d.org!


[ Parent ]
good as it gets? (4.00 / 4)
Close only counts in horseshoes.  Not to make you feel like you are being ganged up on, but......   Even if this is as good as it gets, it isn't good enough.  Who said "I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees"?  Well, that's how I feel.   Sometimes you just have to step up and take your medicine whether you want to or not.   What is always missing in these conversations in duty, morality, principle, and justice.  

[ Parent ]
! (4.00 / 4)
What is always missing in these conversations in duty, morality, principle, and justice.


"I like irony except I find that if you just toss your clothes in the dryer for a few minutes you hardly ever have to use it."- ek hornbeck

[ Parent ]
I completely agree with you (4.00 / 1)
I just think that we have to appreciate that these are elected officials in a situation that we as progressives have created for them.  I think the progressive "movement" today is kind of lazy, as I've said in my diaries.  We don't back up our politicians (or challenge them when they need to be challenged) with any kind of movement, other than writing emails or making phone calls or thinking we can compete in terms of donations with the largest corporations in the world.

Vote for yourself at www.ni4d.org!

[ Parent ]
Appreciate these are elected officials (4.00 / 1)
If they can't take the heat, they don't belong in the kitchen.  We aren't lazy, we're weak.  Look at the lock step support from the so called left for this pile of crap called health care reform.  Why?   Obama made his bed, let him lie in it.   Oh no, instead progressives come up with all kinds of excuses why it was ok to sell out principle, justice, and duty.  Sorry rossl, weak is weak.  

[ Parent ]
Here's a thought: Kucinich is a liar (4.00 / 1)
According to a poster at 911blogger.com, Kucinich promised on 4 separate occasions that he would do a Congressional investigation of 911.

Didn't happen, now, did it?

This sorry incident shows why we need a fully serious analog to The Progressive Change Campaign Coalition (boldprogressives.org). PCCC is only a half step in the right direction.

A fully serious PCCC would have called out Obama for his healthcare lies and demanded an apology from him, would have eviscerated kos for his recent bad-mouthing of Kucinich, and now, sadly, would also go after Kucinich, and demand an apology from him.


for a FULL COURT PRESS
DemocracyABC.org


He doesn't have the power to reinvestigate 911 (4.00 / 2)

Perhaps John Conyers has the power, but Kucinich doesn't even chair any major committees (they won't let him).  He chairs a only a small sub-committe that has very limited jurisdiction.





"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold, is for
people of good conscience to remain silent."
    --Thomas Jefferson


[ Parent ]
Sorry guys and gals... (4.00 / 2)
...It will just take me a bit longer, and a bit more information before I can summarily criticize Dennis.  I'll just have to wait until more facts emerge.

If ever a species deserved to be replaced, we do!   Isaac Asimov

In the meantime... (4.00 / 6)
...I'm in mourning for real Health Care Reform, for Medicare for All.

If ever a species deserved to be replaced, we do!   Isaac Asimov

[ Parent ]
It's still alive in the states (4.00 / 2)
as long as the ERISA thing doesn't kill it, but I have my doubts that it will.

Vote for yourself at www.ni4d.org!

[ Parent ]
Here a new fix (4.00 / 4)
they are adding. With fixes like these the bill will end up being impossible to sell or maybe not. The catapulting of propaganda is so thick this may just get buried.

Richard Trumka, AFL-CIO Chief, Called To White House Over Last Minute Health Care Flare Up

On Wednesday, AFL-CIO President Richard Trumka was called into an unplanned meeting at the White House to discuss late-stage negotiations on a proposed tax on high-end insurance plans. According to sources familiar with what transpired, congressional leaders had begun discussions earlier in the day (perhaps last night) about accelerating the tax's impact in order to produce more savings under the president's revised health care bill.

Is this what's holding up the CBO report?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...


We're looking at the inside game of politics for control of the institutions (4.00 / 4)
of government. Presently, the party system is dysfunctional, as the participants jockey for position amongst themselves, oblivious to their constitutional
responsibilities. I've never before seen such a disconnect between the results of a national election and the actual response of the legislative and executive branches (to those results).

Both parties were certainly aware of the health care crisis, but could not risk losing the financial contributions of the companies by threatening their profits. From day one, this consideration hung around their necks like a noose.

Emanual probably told Obama not to stick his neck in the noose either. This will go down in history as one of the biggest blunders ever, as if there were any comparison at all that could be made between Clinton's 92' victory and Obama's landslide during an economic meltdown. Their frame of reference was simply idiotic.

Playing it safe in the face of urgent reform silenced the only national figure who could have overcome the institutional obstacles; the President. He kicked the people to the side of the street for foolish political calculation that was way off the mark. And he's trying to save himself now. It certainly is not about saving the people.

The only way that reform could have addressed the pre-existing condition issue, issues of annual caps and recission, the control of spiraling cost issues and the inability of millions to even afford insurance was to create legitimate competition for the big insurance companies. Such competition would also have guaranteed that the best and necessary procedures would be available in all policies, because it would have been available in the competitive government sponsored option.

Whether it was an expansion of medicare, a real public option or another legitimate method of competition, the insurance companies would have had to compete somehow. That would have had the effect of controlling the costs and provisions of their own contracts. With the president and congress running AWAY from the key issues, this fiasco was inevitable. And talking about future amendments, resolutions and laws to make IT better is absurd, as if necessary medical care for Americans is something to be weighed against the profit margin of the insurance industry.

Talking about Kucinich is very interesting, but IMHO it is like asking why the chicken wanted to cross the street.



I think the blogger Driftglass nailed it when (4.00 / 4)
… he concluded today (in a different context):
And speaking for all the wee little bloggers members of the House of Representatives who stand on top of our wee little pie wagons and inveigh in the great, long shadows of the Empire against the injustices of that Empire, believe me when I say that we comprehend the full weight of Moriarty's warning to Holmes —
You stand in the way not merely of an individual but of a mighty organization, the full extent of which, even you, with all your cleverness, have been unable to realize. You must stand clear, Mr. Holmes Kucinich, or be trodden under foot.


O offered some goodies for his (0.00 / 0)
district.  Who knows?  Who cares?  Let's move on - when I saw him pitching O's presidency - I realized we need new blood.  Altho I understand Kucinich was a force - but it's over.  

Here's the thing.  My needs, my life is not Obama's success - it's about the American people.  For me Obama is a failure. And I don't want to waste more time on him.  What do we need - he doesn't care - We need to begin the long, hard road of third party candidates.  I see no other way.  

"Disappointment and bourbon are hard on the heart."  (Amanda McBroom, Errol Flynn)


Does it matter why he caved ? (0.00 / 0)
I always say, ignore what they say, follow what they do.

Obama with the high-falutin rhetoric and the totally incongruous Repug-lite actions is a perfect example of whose speeches you should ignore.

Dennis seemed to have more spine than most, except when he could really stop the insanity.

This turd of a bill will help no one.  It's like saying the problem of homelessness is over by mandating that everyone should buy a house.


 

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