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Should Docudharma Take On the Obamabots? Update

by: buhdydharma

Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 11:33:12 PST        
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After the election I and many others did our very best to accommodate those at Daily Kos who can, despite their plaintive objections, can only be described as Obamabots.

I define Obamabots as unthinking cheerleaders for the president who attempt through attack and vilification seek to silence any criticism of the President that is not qualified by glowing praise and passing McCarthyesque loyalty tests.

I'm SURE you all know who I mean, lol.

Despite massive efforts to be sensitive to their feelings, it seems that nothing but gushing praise is good enough for them, and that the least bit of doubt, thoughtful questioning, or reasoned critique.....let alone trying to apply political pressure, is met with a torrent of comments attempting to silence any and all dissent from "the party Line." Though in this case, the party is just one man.

This not directly the fault of that website. Indeed, much like the principle of free speech that it has done an exemplary job of upholding....all things considered and the internet being what it is....through all of these years, the website has no control over who posts there and what they post. As long as people stay withing the relatively few rules of posting there. I am not criticizing the website, but the people who have come to the site through the primary process, and a few that have been there all along. I come here not to bash Daily Kos, I come here to bash the users at Daily Kos who have, in my opinion, and the opinion of thousands of others, ruined it. As far as being a TRULY effective political site dedicated to changing the status quo.

But these folks have literally driven thousands of people away from Daily Kos, including me, with their tactics that ironically, Obama himself has condemned as being exactly what is wrong with politics, blind unthinking partisanship.

So I have a question for those who have been here all along and those who have come here seeking refuge. Should we....while observing one of our cardinal rules....No Dkos Bashing....which has kept many here silent about what has happened to Daily Kos at the hands of the Obamabots....

Take off the gloves?

Again I wish to emphasize the distinction between Daily Kos and the people who post in the comments there. I think the world of the FPrs there and of Markos. IF we do this, (whatever this is, lol) I will constantly remind folks of that distinction. With that in mind, and considering carefully the consequences, both intended and unintended....please vote in the poll.

I also wish to emphasize that this has nothing to do with Obama either. Personally, I like the guy! But activism means a certain amount of loyal opposition. Obama knows this, it is the bots that don't.

Update: VERY interesting discussion. There seems to be a general consensus in the comments to NOT make DD a war zone ....despite the poll, lol. But I think we need to keep talking about this! I will reframe and try a different approach tomorrow
buhdydharma :: Should Docudharma Take On the Obamabots? Update
Poll
Should Docudharma actively oppose the Obamabots?
Yes
No

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Should Docudharma Take On the Obamabots? Update | 318 comments
Just for the record, Obama "supporters".... (4.00 / 43)
Photobucket

Reality is the result of war between two rival groups of programmers,

so....Roar Louder!!!

Doin' it already. (4.00 / 20)
It's an exercise in futility, but then I'm easily entertained.  


i love the smell of bipartisanship in the morning...
smells like...fucktory. -bubanomics
[ Parent ]
Yeah I kinda thought that we and many others were (4.00 / 19)
already doing it, each in our own way of course.  
[ Parent ]
You definitely are (4.00 / 17)
everyone has their own way.  There about 9 or 10 of us who do battle regularly over there.  Maybe what buhdy is asking is about doing it HERE?    


i love the smell of bipartisanship in the morning...
smells like...fucktory. -bubanomics
[ Parent ]
Yup (4.00 / 15)


Reality is the result of war between two rival groups of programmers,

so....Roar Louder!!!

[ Parent ]
I say (4.00 / 18)
fire the shots over there and come back here to lick our wounds.  Wait!  That's what I do now!  


i love the smell of bipartisanship in the morning...
smells like...fucktory. -bubanomics
[ Parent ]
To the extent that they (4.00 / 30)
undermine progressive change, we have no other option.  People like Elise, Mainomides, and many others do so.

Most people who are super-supporters of Obama are still allies.  Yes, even fan-boyz and girls are still allies because they are both progressives and Obama supporters.
But those who operate as a group to shut down critcism of Obama or of centrist Democrats must be opposed, both here and there.  We have no other choice.

There is no need for "Obamabot."  It just distracts.

[ Parent ]
I can definitely understand your point here, (4.00 / 14)
but I think that Obamabots are a small segment of the population. Unfortunately, they seem to get a lot of other folks riled up right along with 'em.

I'm OK with the word "Obamabot"; hell, I used to even call myself one.

I don't like Congress.

[ Parent ]
I have no problem with Obamabot either. (4.00 / 15)
It paints as vivid a picture as "old white men" and "wingnuts", both of which are all over dkos.   They all are incredible shorthand and convey a message in one word.  They lament Rove and how we don't know how to message; but they want to go all girlie and PC on Obamabot.  Please.  Purity troll is another one of those phrases that paints a picture worth a thousand words.  That one doesn't seem to bother them a bit.

I think the change is that we need to come out of the closet on dkos.  I don't think we need to obsess on them, afterall - who really cares.  But, I think we need to call a spade a spade.  If the shoe doesn't fit, they shouldn't wear it.

I remember Kos from 2004, and I miss the Kos that use to be there then.  The front page of the blog also feels disconnected and distant.  It's like they're just writing articles and publishing customized press releases. I am sad to see the changes in dkos, and I do not think they've been for the better.  However, I am delighted for his personal success, and I wish him, his family, and his business nothing but the best.  Nothing stays the same, and we can't go home again.  

Do I want to fight them?  No, but -  I won't let them drive me out, and I don't want to SFU here or there.  As I said to ek this morning, doing, not telling, is the greater sin.

[ Parent ]
Sure we have a choice. This a base camp and refuge. (4.00 / 18)
I come here for relief from the perpetual cage match there.  I haven't been here long, but I'd hate to see this site import the meanness and mudslinging.  As in, don't piss in your own chili.
[ Parent ]
Yep (4.00 / 13)
base camp and refuge is right.  Up until now, this hasn't been spoken, though the gang that can't shoot straight has thought all along that's what we do here, coordinate our little band of attacks and descend on them like vultures.  

Perhaps we should post itineraries.  "Hey, I'm in the pooties and woozles today!"  "Look for me in the STFU if you don't LOVE Obama diary today".  


i love the smell of bipartisanship in the morning...
smells like...fucktory. -bubanomics

[ Parent ]
funny! (4.00 / 6)


"We are in the Age of Shiva, an age of death and rebirth. If we only focus on what is past we feel loss. If we focus on new beginnings we feel anticipation, like looking forward to a new day without knowing quite what the weather is going to be like."
[ Parent ]
Hilarious. It didn't occur to me until after I posted (4.00 / 8)
the comment above that military options could (and would) be inferred.  Raiding parties, scouts, and whatnot.  Maybe remote drones ...
[ Parent ]
Remote drones... great idea. lol.. n.t (4.00 / 4)

[ Parent ]
Well, they booted me last April (4.00 / 9)
for pointing out with tongue firmly in cheek (but with ample referral links) that it's SOP to genetically engineer flu viruses in governmment, Pharma and land grant university labs as they seek with CDC grant money to discover an omni-vaccine against generalized strains and sub-strains. And that there have been more than a couple of 'incidents' where fail safe protocols have been breached by post-grads working late or being distracted. That was based on CDC announcement that very morning that the new H1N1 was a chimera, but before WHO announcement that very afternoon that it was to be labeled "Swine Flu" and no one was allowed to mention its chimeric elements. I figure I got caught in the 2-3 hour window of PUT A LID ON IT QUICK!!!

Now that I simply peruse the site to see what's up today and am quite used to not participating, I've no desire to craft a sockpuppet even though I am quite a nationally noted puppetmaker, with one in the National Puppetry Museum in Atlanta (they want more, but instead they're still hanging in the shed rafters). But those are real puppets. I've simply grown beyond the GOS and am not interested in participating anymore.

But since I do like perusing the site for dust-ups, outrages and news items, I don't mind discussing those here.

Some are born to weirdness, some attain weirdness and others have weirdness thrust upon them...
- OPOL

[ Parent ]
asdf. i would like to see pics of your puppets! (4.00 / 3)


"For the cost of deploying one soldier for one year, it is possible to build about 20 schools." N. Kristof  
[ Parent ]
I'll have to take some pix (4.00 / 2)
to get 'em digitized. It was great fun going to the taxidermy place to buy glass eyes (for Marlin, I think). That guy was amazed that someone would use 'em that way, and even know how to paint human (or dragon) irises on the back! Some are mache, most are carved foam (which I learned via Marc Anthony at Ringling). Even had to buy an electric turkey-carving knife for the job! There's hand puppets, rod puppets, humanettes, and Smaug (the one in the museum, daughter designed in consult with Hobie Ford, flaps wings and breathes fire and everything!). Crew also did a total of 4 for a production of "Little Shop of Horrors," foam on heat-bent PVC. David Ballard was our mentor, we had some truly fine shows... §;o)

Some are born to weirdness, some attain weirdness and others have weirdness thrust upon them...
- OPOL
[ Parent ]
Choice (4.00 / 11)
Be excellent
As soon as we lower the standard, we lower our value.
There are many many other blogs out there that may be as deserving of the same kind of "action", so why one in particular.
If anyone comes here for the quality of the place & the people here, bringing baggage with them from there,  defeats that purpose.
Water seeks it`s own level, & so does discourse.
Be excellent is not a suggestion for when on the blog here, but a call to strive for being excellent in life & in any interaction with others.
Why should we be less than excellent, because of a color, or the sometimes colorful language at another place.
On the other hand, any rude intruders or invaders of this place by anybody who doesn`t try to be excellent should be ostracised, no matter what color the place is they come from.
This will become docudrama if the change we all talk about, is one that makes this place a lesser one.
As a sanctuary, this is where people from anywhere are readily accepted, but not as a staging area for battle, but as a place to realize the change they clamor for.
This place has already grown with immigrants from close & far, & will continue to if it remains excellent.
The more excellent the people the better the collective ability to effect the change.
When the purpose of this place had in part of it`s definition as not to be a Dkos bashing place, the place soon took on a better feel to it as new arrivals grokked it.
I think it`s a waste of energy to try & debot or rebot people who are not programmed (not a good word) to accept a new OS version, or will not even concede that one exists.

I used to be a member at Dkos before 2004 but it didn`t work out for me being a naif with a computer, though I still read there daily.

I`d venture that if the animosity was put aside for a month, there would be another graduation to the next level, leaving the class of 2009 behind to retake the test in their orange uniforms.
I do think the outfits are nice in an excellent way, but here it`s always casual dress.
Peace


[ Parent ]
Your first two sentences say it all Knuck (4.00 / 4)

As soon as we stoop to the same level of pettiness, we become, in many ways, less than we were. Both on a  personal level and as DD as an entity, lowering one's standards lessens one's effectiveness, and appeal. And the appeal to another's sense of "what is right" is the basis of both politics, and diplomacy.

Truth is like cream, it rises to the top, and in doing so becomes a beacon for others searching for it.

Be well, and be excellent!

visualize: the act of the mind using spiritual energy to manifest in the physical realm  

[ Parent ]
ponied up for "be excellent" (0.00 / 0)
Bill_and_Teds_Excellent_Adventures_BeExcellent_to_Each_Other-T

"For the cost of deploying one soldier for one year, it is possible to build about 20 schools." N. Kristof  
[ Parent ]
Thanks for the input Tom (4.00 / 7)


Reality is the result of war between two rival groups of programmers,

so....Roar Louder!!!

[ Parent ]
I've Never Liked The Term "Obamabot" (4.00 / 9)
It's similar to knee jerk Obama supporters calling people like me."chicken littles".

I have no problem with analyzing the actions of the Obama administration and explaining how it is all primarily right wing democrat bunk.

So I would feel fine with a concerted effort to expose the smoke and mirrors of much of Obama's presidency so far, realistically I don't think he will change.

Authoritarian political ideologies have a vested interest in promoting fear. ----Susan Sontag

[ Parent ]
Might I suggest Corporate Unicorns? (4.00 / 2)


Chaotic Neutral, Drinker of Milkshakes
[ Parent ]
what, obsess on that site even worse (4.00 / 10)
than we already do?

I'm not sure that's a good idea.

"We are in the Age of Shiva, an age of death and rebirth. If we only focus on what is past we feel loss. If we focus on new beginnings we feel anticipation, like looking forward to a new day without knowing quite what the weather is going to be like."

[ Parent ]
That gets a laugh out of me. (4.00 / 14)
I started to recognize that no rational criticism was allowed after we had Larry Summers was appointed and that nothing was worthy of discussion if it was not on Obmaa's agenda. It seem truly anti-grassroots. I always thought that the progressive movement was centered in grassroots activism. It just set me off from there.

That's why Buhdy's diaries are so inspiring there, it is because that they simple argue for a bottom up politics that have the effect of entirely silencing them.

I don't know what shape it would take here.  

[ Parent ]
Summers slurps and swallows hopes and dreams (0.00 / 0)
as if he was Jabba the Hutt.

Chaotic Neutral, Drinker of Milkshakes
[ Parent ]
My first inkling was the epic blow-off of Howard Dean (4.00 / 1)
2nd was the Geithner appointment.

I burned my Certified Obamabot card when I connected the dots of the Pharma Deal.

I would be interested in a poll about what each of our WTF? moments were.  Thanks for sharing yours.

aka CWalter

[ Parent ]
Battle is the wrong frame... (4.00 / 4)
Litigate is the correct frame.

Remember that we are speaking to the jury when we're talking to the bots.

Not much sense in doing that here.

Here, we should lead by example. There we should crush their hope filled fallacies clearly and articulately.

You do that well, Nada, as does thethinveil.

Buhdy, keep up with that reframing...

Perhaps we should dissect and destroy their crap here in a matter of fact manner.

Peace!

[ Parent ]
The futility is the hard part (4.00 / 13)
But as Jeff Smith said when he went to Washington, Lost causes are the ones you have to fight for....

or something like that!

Reality is the result of war between two rival groups of programmers,

so....Roar Louder!!!

[ Parent ]
Like when the Germans bombed (4.00 / 8)
Pearl Harbor!  


i love the smell of bipartisanship in the morning...
smells like...fucktory. -bubanomics
[ Parent ]
LOL (4.00 / 5)
I love you, but don't tell MoT. :)

I don't like Congress.
[ Parent ]
Jeff Smith should not (4.00 / 10)
be quoted.  He is in prison now.

http://www.studlife.com/news/2...

Former state Sen. Jeff Smith was sentenced on Tuesday in St. Louis federal court to just over a year in prison, on federal charges that he lied to authorities about illegal activities in his 2004 run for Congress.

The St. Louis Democrat and former Washington University instructor received 12 months and one day in prison for each of two counts of conspiracy to obstruct justice. The sentences will run concurrently. He was also ordered to pay a $50,000 fine.

Law school graduate Steve Brown, a former Democratic state representative from Clayton, was sentenced to two years of probation on one conspiracy count and fined $40,000. University graduate Nick Adams, who was Smith's campaign treasurer, was sentenced to two years of probation for each of two conspiracy counts and fined $5,000. His sentences are also concurrent


[ Parent ]
They're dropping like flies! (4.00 / 7)
Him, Baucus, blah blah blah.

I don't like Congress.
[ Parent ]
I was reffering to Jefferson Smith (4.00 / 8)
In Mr Smith goes to Washington!

Reality is the result of war between two rival groups of programmers,

so....Roar Louder!!!

[ Parent ]
Oh, sorry. (4.00 / 4)
There was a documentary in 2004 that was titled "Can Mr. Smith still make it to Washington."

Jeff Smith was supported by Howard Dean in 2004.  He is a huge disappoitment.  

[ Parent ]
That's what I thought (4.00 / 5)
but then again, with the Holder DOJ, maybe they DID put a fictional character in jail.  I hold no more illusions of what the powers would do given a chance.  


i love the smell of bipartisanship in the morning...
smells like...fucktory. -bubanomics
[ Parent ]
I got it...wasn't you. :D n.t (4.00 / 2)

[ Parent ]
I voted "yes" (4.00 / 8)
but that's conditional. I honestly don't want to 'invite' the lunkheads over here to start fights, as that would make us just like GOS. But I definitely don't think the subject of what's going on should be verboten, and we should be able to talk about it amongst ourselves all we like. My view, anyhoo... §;o)

Some are born to weirdness, some attain weirdness and others have weirdness thrust upon them...
- OPOL
[ Parent ]
Yeah but if you talk about them they will come to read about themselves. (4.00 / 8)
More than some already do.
I don't want to see references to stuff they read here in the diaries there. I think people have been doing a fine job standing their ground without any organization to do so. It seems natural. It IS natural. I'd like to have buhdy back doing his thing at orange though. I'd like that a lot.

aka burned
[ Parent ]
Well... (4.00 / 4)
we're talking about them now, aren't we? I don't care if they read what we're saying, as I've never harbored the illusion that these here intertoobs were some sort of private domain. Hell, our email isn't even private! They've gotta have at least three flunkies paid way more than I make just following me around...

What I don't want is for them to sign in here and try to do here what they're doing there. But were that to occur, I think some here (including me) could make short work of them. If it's uncomfortable enough, they'll go back to where they're paid to play.

Some are born to weirdness, some attain weirdness and others have weirdness thrust upon them...
- OPOL

[ Parent ]
Buhdy has bullshit repellant here (4.00 / 6)
called a "ban" button.
[ Parent ]
Yeah we are (4.00 / 4)
And I'm sure it's excited that little bees nest.

aka burned
[ Parent ]
you have an excellent point (4.00 / 3)
i remember an incident when i said something about fos here and someone pointed it out to her.  the truth was that i had already expressed myself clearly to her in orange, but she felt as if i was talking behind her back when i commented here.  i regretted doing so because i thought it could reflect negatively on dd.  this is something to consider.  if dd goes ahead with this, it has to be a concerted and conscious effort.  i hate to go with the war metaphors, but something like with both guns blasting.  ugh.

aka conchita
[ Parent ]
Someone last night already pointed this thread out to MB (4.00 / 5)
I assume that's why he came over anyway.
There are a few people at dkos that would love to see this place with a great big anti everything label.

aka burned
[ Parent ]
YES!! (4.00 / 6)


President Obama is "leading" (and I use that term very loosely) the Democratic Party completely and totally off the cliff, and at risk now (even with landslide margins) of becoming a total political irrelevancy.

Sites like as large as DailyKos, like it or not, are an important barometer of just what the "mainstream" activists are feeling, and just what they are really willing to fight and push for. We need them to wake-up get hip to the horrible deal that they and everyone else is getting.

  • Obama is just carrying out Bush's 3rd term on Endless War, Occupations, Detentions, Government Secrecy, senseless Drone brutality, indefinite imprisonment.


  • When WallStreet jumps, Obama just quietly gives them everything they want - no questions asked.


  • When Insurance and Drug companies jump, Obama just makes backdoor assurances that they will get a good deal for them.


  • Even in just his first few weeks, Obama torpedoed the whole entire mandate of the 2008 Elections, by staffing up his administration with "stay the course" War Mongering Chicken Hawks, Wall Street Crooks, "Bluedog" DLC-NAFTA hacks, and even some of Bush's own damn people (while quietly sending 20,000 more Troops to die in Afghanistan, and inviting Drug and Insurance Companies to private White House meetings to define (whitewash) "reform").

This disgusting track reord is the polar opposite of any change in direction, and Obama needs to now really feel the heat from the Left in a big, big, big way - or the Democratic Party is doomed.

It is important that DailyKos, MoveOn, and all the other so-called activist sites here the message that this is so NOT what we voted for - it is the opposite!

Obama is nothing but a smooth, charlatan that has worked to undercut the Left, and also tricked and fooled them into passivity (against our own damn interests).

Folks, We cannot just take this stuff lying down!

FEINGOLD-KUCINCH 2008 baby!!




"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold, is for
people of good conscience to remain silent."
    --Thomas Jefferson

[ Parent ]
Typo corrected: FEINGOLD-KUCINICH 2012!! (4.00 / 3)



"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold, is for
people of good conscience to remain silent."
    --Thomas Jefferson
[ Parent ]
Why not just reelecting Feingold and Kucinich? (4.00 / 4)
I'm coming to firmly believe that our (Americans') strong focus on the presidency is very counterproductive, especially to grassroots movements.

Vote for yourself at www.ni4d.org!
[ Parent ]
Because.... (4.00 / 1)


The corrupt U.S. Foreign Policy will never change until we have a Kennedy-esque type of person at the Presidental level, with the power to refuse to give the go-ahead to the out-of-control demands of the Pentagon, the CIA, the Monopolists, and the globalists, and who will stand up to the Generals and tell them No.

The President also commands the public bullypulpit far more than any other political figure.  Therefore, if we had a person at the Presidental level that would really speak out against Wall Street, the Insurance Companies, the Central Banking Monopoly, and can turn people on to new policies...bold and imaginative thinking on policy direction...this is the only way that the these ideas will have a chance, and also become seen as credible by the U.S. News Media.

Progress is always quashed at the top, because we have only had pro-Status-Quo, pro-Establishment people in there at the Presidental level...who want to always play it safe (or reward their buddies).

So, political progress is always dead-on-arrival until we get a ticket like Feingold-Kucinich or Kucinich-Feingold or Kucinich-Grayson ... etc.






"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold, is for
people of good conscience to remain silent."
    --Thomas Jefferson

[ Parent ]
Tickets like that are never elected, though (4.00 / 2)
and I think if they are elected at the congressional level (or local or state level, depending on who it is), then it has more of an impact.  I mean, I was a Gravel and Kucinich supporter in the primaries and I'm glad they ran, but I knew they weren't gonna win.  And now that I've been following candidacies like theirs for a while I'm starting to think that it's more important to focus on places where they CAN win instead of imagining them as some kind of savior once they get the presidency.

Vote for yourself at www.ni4d.org!
[ Parent ]
Tickets like that CAN be elected. (4.00 / 1)


You are correct that in the Television age, it has been nearly impossible for Presidential candidates with any left-of-center principles to break through to victory.  But what has primarily driven this, is the Corporate controlled fundraising machine.

But 2004 proved that the tables can be turned.

Howard Dean, through the power of the Internet, nearly won the Democratic Nomination.  He made some mistakes in the final two months that hurt him.  But he was vey, very close.

In 2008, we also saw the tables turned.  The U.S. Media wanted to coronate Hillary Clinton, and Rudy "911" Guiliani. In past years, their money and National exposure would have been too much to overcome.  

But we saw libertarian Ron Paul benefit from an Internet wave to catch up in fundraising with the major candidates and get a seat at the Debate table. We also saw a largely grassroots inspired movement pushing and willing Barack Obama over Hillary Clinton.  That movement thought that Obama would be a credible voice for progressive change. Unfortunately, time has shown that Obama was merely just toying with the Left, and really just commited to govern as a good soldier for the War Industry, the status-quo DLC-NAFTA wing, the Bankers, and the Corporations.

But the point is, that people actually do have more power now, because the Internet has emerged as an amazing fundraising mechanism and organizing tool.

So, thee is no reason on earth not to believe that Russ Feingold could not compete and win in the Democratic Primaries, and go on from there to beat a Sarah Palin or a Mitt Romney.

These Tickets can win, if they use the Internet very, very well and get organized early, and inspire people with real policy change ... and not just abstract rhetorical fluff.

The problem in 2008, was that Obama fooled a whole lot of people with his phony change talk, and few looked at his weak, vague, and centrist-right policy proposals, and his Council On Foreign Relations (World Policeman Elitist club) roots, and his embrace with people lile Rahm Emaneul.

I was hoping that this guy, who had spent some time listening to Jeremiah Wright in Church, on some level really knew the difference between right and wrong, peace...and War, aggreesion...and defense.

But Obama had no voting record as a boat-rocker. He was really always just a facilitator for the Establishment, and a insiders-club boy, the whole time.

Feingold has a real voting record. He is the real thing. If we all invest in him, he will oppose the Patriot Act, oppose and end the Foreign Occupations, support a real Department of Justice, and we will finally begin to have some real policy change.

It can happen!!





"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold, is for
people of good conscience to remain silent."
    --Thomas Jefferson

[ Parent ]
It never has happened (4.00 / 1)
but people like that are elected locally and to Congress and to state offices all the time.  There's never been a radical leftist president in the US - only radical corporatists or unintentional radicals (meaning that their decisions created radical change, but they didn't intend it that way).

Vote for yourself at www.ni4d.org!
[ Parent ]
Totally NOT true. (0.00 / 0)


John Kennedy was elected President.
Jimmy "Solar Panels in the White House" Carter was elected President.
FDR was elected President 4 times!
Robert Kennedy would have won except they shot him.
Michael Dukakis had a 20-point lead..before he blew it.

There is no reason on earth to not think that Russ Feingold could be elected.  He is even liked by the Mainstream Media.  He has won difficult Elections repeatedly in a midwest battleground state known for its independence. Obviously, his chances are going to be better in year 2016 then they will be against an incumbant in 2012.  

But if it had been Feingold .vs McCain-Palin, the Democrat would have still been the 2008 winner.

Feingold, had he run last time, would have easily beat out status-quo schmucks like Joe Biden, Chris Dodd, Richardson, etc.  He might not have beaten out Hillary Clinton (with all her money) -- but she ain't going to be on the ballot next time around!!  And now that Obama has proven himself to be a boring captive of anti-Change, Establishment thinking (i.e., a political fraud), all the "hope" invested and the appeal of Obama is going to be gone by 2012.  Obama is the new LBJ.

Feingold can win!




"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold, is for
people of good conscience to remain silent."
    --Thomas Jefferson

[ Parent ]
I think Feingold is too short (0.00 / 0)
Dumb criteria, IMO, but seems to be important on the national stage.

"This health care system is a moral atrocity." Dr. RalphDog (on blog)
[ Parent ]
Feingold could coast to re-election. (0.00 / 0)
The only reason he's running hard right now is to build infrastructure to help keep D control of the State legislature, and to a lesser extent the Governor's office. He's putting all his money into field offices and canvasses across the State, not TV spots.

Right now I'm a lot happier with the Dems in our Legislature than the Congress. (we should have medical; marijuana legislation enacted by the end of next month.)


Resisting dumb wars since 1968

[ Parent ]
I just found out where the (4.00 / 11)
smart kids hang out and you want to invite the lugheads over?

Seriously, think twice and thrice about this.  

First of all, I am addicted to GOS, but now I have a chance of kicking it over here.  If there comes here, my addiction will be impossible to kick!!

If you want to take them on, use a sockpuppet account and don't let them track you back here so easily.  Make them work for it.

I created a new user name just now here and have no intention of revealing myself.  My other username was compromised by someone who did not know that he should have respected my anonymity.

I give most of you credit for using the same names here.  You are brave.

I honestly think a good percentage of them are trolls who want to misuse our time.  The rest are I don't know what.

I am really frightened about what is happening on the intertoobs and in the meat world.  Things are heating up impossibly fast and there seem to be no exits for most every problem we have.  People are starting to get that in their guts and are turning on each other.

I wouldn't waste energy exposing DKos for what it is or even a segment of Kossaks for how they behave.  I think the site is going to slide downhill really, really fast when the reality of what we are facing bites everyone in the ass. What will people be able to say when this Depression turns into 2.0 with a twist and Obama still wants to smile and play nice with Lieberman?

I've only been over there since the primaries, but the past few months have been really awful.  

I have to say that for me mostly I don't even pay attention to usernames all that much unless something really, really strikes me.  It is a bunch of anonymous anger aimed at imagined enemies.  

I am sorry Colorado went through a bad time in the past two days, but taking them all too seriously in the sense of personally is not a good thing to do.

I am hoping my blood pressure can calm down here.  The net can still do a lot of good, but it will need to keep morphing to stay ahead of the Matrix.  I have been wishing something like DKos with a lot of traffic would emerge as an alternate and more leftish site.  Watching diaries explode is a kind of high even when they get ahead of your computer connection.  I'd concentrate on building this site buddy.  All of 'our' bread is buttered on this side, not that one.

It strikes me as unimportant what battles get won or lost in threads.  What is important is to keep the information flowing and people's brains in gear.


[ Parent ]
yup (4.00 / 2)
The net can still do a lot of good, but it will need to keep morphing to stay ahead of the Matrix. I have been wishing something like DKos with a lot of traffic would emerge as an alternate and more leftish site.

You are not the first to suggest we just "let it burn" and it will devolve into irrelevance. So who's gonna tell Keith O and Rachel? heh. Thats the only reason I care, mostly. It annoys me that the site is held up as the voice of "The Left" by mainstream.

They say "the best revenge is living well", no?

Ive had this song in my head all evening. It gives me a chuckle.



No justice, no peace.

[ Parent ]
I needed that (4.00 / 2)
song today.  Like I said, a lot of people are just freaking out and need to be told off.

[ Parent ]
Silence like a cancer grows- Simon & Garfunkel (4.00 / 2)
But my words like silent raindrops fell.....



Only Actions Don't Lie!

[ Parent ]
the white tiger (4.00 / 5)
Save The Tiger,
excellent comment &, as I see you are very recently arrived, your blood pressure will soon be on par with the mellow of your attitude.
Welcome here.
[ Parent ]
Who said this? (July 3, 2008) (4.00 / 2)
Now, I understand why some of you feel differently about the current bill, and I'm happy to take my lumps on this site and elsewhere. For the truth is that your organizing, your activism and your passion is an important reason why this bill is better than previous versions. No tool has been more important in focusing peoples' attention on the abuses of executive power in this Administration than the active and sustained engagement of American citizens. That holds true -- not just on wiretapping, but on a range of issues where Washington has let the American people down.

I learned long ago, when working as an organizer on the South Side of Chicago, that when citizens join their voices together, they can hold their leaders accountable. I'm not exempt from that. I'm certainly not perfect, and expect to be held accountable too. I cannot promise to agree with you on every issue. But I do promise to listen to your concerns, take them seriously, and seek to earn your ongoing support to change the country. That is why we have built the largest grassroots campaign in the history of presidential politics, and that is the kind of White House that I intend to run as President of the United States -- a White House that takes the Constitution seriously, conducts the peoples' business out in the open, welcomes and listens to dissenting views, and asks you to play your part in shaping our country's destiny.




Resisting dumb wars since 1968
[ Parent ]
A question.... (4.00 / 16)
would "actively opposing" them legitimize them as "having another opinion as valid as any other" by giving them attention, in the same way that I think "actively opposing" wingnut mutants like beck by giving him attention does?

IOW, would it be self defeating? Rather than just let exposure to reality crush them slowly. Which it will, btw, I believe...

The only problem there is (4.00 / 15)
that they seem immune to reality!

One of my fav original sayings: never underestimate the power of rationalization and denial!

There is a lot to think about here, including the point you bring up.

Of course by far the WORST consequence would be.....having them come here, lol.

I wrote this kind of impulsively, after seeing Shiz be their latest victim, so I haven't really thought it through either.

But before I take them on again, which would also have consequences for the site, i thought it would be good to get feedback.

I know a lot of people would absolutely HATE the thought of this, especially if it means destroying the sanctuary that DD seems to have become lol.

So we really need to take time to consider it.

After all, WE are capable of nuance and consideration!


Reality is the result of war between two rival groups of programmers,

so....Roar Louder!!!

[ Parent ]
Well, I think back to under Bush (4.00 / 11)
that there was, finally, an incorrigible and ineducable 26 percent of peasants left who, no matter how hard anyone tried to reason with them were simply bulletproof and utterly obtuse in their determination to remain in fantasyland at all costs... and I think there will always be a hardcore remnant among the obamabots too who will stay just as bulletproof and immune to reasoning, no?

And just a hypothesis - they might even be the same people, I suspect... (who just jumped from the GOP when it started sinking to the dems as the only power game left in town)

[ Parent ]
ooooooh! (4.00 / 9)
they might even be the same people, I suspect... (who just jumped from the GOP when it started sinking to the dems as the only power game left in town)

Now THAT is harsh!

LOL

But the resemblances are hard to ignore, fer sure

Reality is the result of war between two rival groups of programmers,

so....Roar Louder!!!

[ Parent ]
Wel they are there I think (4.00 / 9)
only to disrupt and to make people waste time arguing with them. Even if they are capable of reasoning, I think their whole intention is to NOT engage with reason...

Even the right wing media has admitted that...

"A Great Little Racket": The Neocon Media Machine

Not by any accident, the neoconservatives' time of greatest influence on U.S. foreign policy coincided with the explosive growth of mass media outlets from which they could promote their policies. The omnipresent fluttering American flag on Fox News exemplifies the new über-patriotic packaging through which the invasion of Afghanistan, the invasion of Iraq, and the escalation of tensions with Iran are marketed packages.

When asked why the Weekly Standard and Fox News have increased in popularity over the past few years, Matt Labash, a senior writer at the Weekly Standard responded that it was "because they feed the rage. We bring the pain to the liberal media. I say that mockingly, but it's true somewhat. We come with a strong point of view and people like point of view journalism. While all these hand-wringing Freedom Forum types talk about objectivity, the conservative media likes to rap the liberal media on the knuckles for not being objective. We've created this cottage industry in which it pays to be un-objective. It pays to be subjective as much as possible. It's a great way to have your cake and eat it too. Criticize other people for not being objective. Be as subjective as you want. It's a great little racket. I'm glad we found it actually."

[ Parent ]
They remind me of the trolls (4.00 / 6)
on the stock message boards, who were clearly paid to post, while calling others out as paid bashers.  


i love the smell of bipartisanship in the morning...
smells like...fucktory. -bubanomics
[ Parent ]
On the other hand... (4.00 / 11)
if it's war they want, well then...


[ Parent ]
These are not the progressives you are looking for (4.00 / 8)


I look good in tin foil
[ Parent ]
Hey are you Edgewater? (4.00 / 3)
i remember him slaying some Obamabots.  
[ Parent ]
Nope just remembered he was from the south. (4.00 / 3)
ANyways I miss that guy.  
[ Parent ]
Nope, I'm just me... (4.00 / 2)
with a little inspiration...

"The Edge... There is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over."
-- Hunter S. Thompson

[ Parent ]
Our future problems politically will come from the (4.00 / 1)
center.

The sane Republicans are going to join the corporate Dems and they will stomp for whatever the mainstream corporate media pushes.

I totally believe Edger to be correct.

Although, they also could be the 'undecideds' that Luntz often speaks to.

Those people are nothing but corporate stooges destined to believe whatever happens on the toob.

[ Parent ]
for all we know, Edger (4.00 / 5)
they're neocon plants.

"We are in the Age of Shiva, an age of death and rebirth. If we only focus on what is past we feel loss. If we focus on new beginnings we feel anticipation, like looking forward to a new day without knowing quite what the weather is going to be like."
[ Parent ]
I think they are in some cases, yes... (4.00 / 7)

[ Parent ]
Another way of looking at this (4.00 / 4)
is who holds out best, the guerrilla army or the Redcoats?

"We are in the Age of Shiva, an age of death and rebirth. If we only focus on what is past we feel loss. If we focus on new beginnings we feel anticipation, like looking forward to a new day without knowing quite what the weather is going to be like."
[ Parent ]
Well, if some are plants (4.00 / 6)
they are there only to disrupt and to get people to waste time arguing with them instead of doing constructive planning and activism.

If they make you waste your time then they succeed, but if they are ignored they lose.... I think.

[ Parent ]
I think they're paid by the party. (4.00 / 2)
You might have a wingnut troll pretending to be an Obama supporter, but they wouldn't want to stop us from bashing or challenging Obama.  I really think they are paid party plants - and nuts.  We really can't totally dismiss the 26% factor either.  
[ Parent ]
Why wouldn't they? (4.00 / 1)
The wingnuts and neocons love his Afghanistan surge... they want us to support him now even though they'll do everything they can to discredit him later for 2012
[ Parent ]
True on the surge... (4.00 / 2)
Probably true on health care too since we are pushing for medicare for all... last thing they'd want.  Emm, maybe so.  
[ Parent ]
Here's a better explanantion (4.00 / 3)
The decision has been made. The months of meetings and briefings are over. Tuesday night, the president made it official: 30,000 more American troops to Afghanistan. Along with Friday's announcement of an additional 7,000 from our NATO allies, after all those weeks of debate and consultation, the result's pretty much exactly what our commander over there, Gen. Stanley McChrystal, asked for in the first place. As they used to say in the old war movies, we're in it now, up to our necks. More than ever, this is Obama's War. The mess he inherited from the previous administration is now his mess. And while many Republicans may don their helmets, rattle their empty rusty scabbards and shout that escalation is the only way to go, their temporary declarations of support are just that - temporary. Pats on the back are simply their way of finding the proper place to stick the knife. Last week's Gallup Poll showed that while 65 percent of Republicans support sending all the troops McChrystal wants, only 17 percent of Obama's own Democrats do; 57 percent want a troop reduction. In other words, ignoring the entreaties of a majority in his own party Obama is going to war cheered on by the opposition that will do everything in its power next fall to bring him and his fellow Democrats down.

-- The Afghan Ambush, by Michael Winship, Saturday 05 December 2009

[ Parent ]
it's possible that too many are under the illusion (4.00 / 2)
that Obama won because of being able to appeal to the right as well as to the left, and thus continuing in this direction will ensure his re-election over the neocons.

This hypothesis ignores all the people on the left who wavered so strongly about voting for him, and the disinclination of neocons to support African-Americans in positions of power.

You'd think this would be obvious, but perhaps not.

"We are in the Age of Shiva, an age of death and rebirth. If we only focus on what is past we feel loss. If we focus on new beginnings we feel anticipation, like looking forward to a new day without knowing quite what the weather is going to be like."

[ Parent ]
Or, as gotterdammerung put it (4.00 / 6)
on saturday:

Set up... like a bowling pin. The Republicans are the ones playing 11 dimensional chess.

[ Parent ]
So they get their permanent state of war (4.00 / 2)
and Obama ushers in their Project for a New American Century for them... while the economy falls apart and most democrats stay home next year out of disgust at that and at "insurance care reform", and then the repubs get the white house back in 2012 too.

All because Obama didn't have it in him to stand up to them now and fulfill his own campaign promises partly because of the (right wing) Obamabots swarming and demanding "loyalty" and no criticism allowed to push him to back the left and away from the escalation.

   "I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank. "

   - Barack Obama Campaign Promise, 10/27/07


[ Parent ]
to the extent that anyone attempts (4.00 / 2)
to stifle free debate, they are on the wrong side - no matter what their justifications are.

I make exceptions for hate speech and bigotry, but otherwise, criticizing elected officials must always be fair game.  

"We are in the Age of Shiva, an age of death and rebirth. If we only focus on what is past we feel loss. If we focus on new beginnings we feel anticipation, like looking forward to a new day without knowing quite what the weather is going to be like."

[ Parent ]
So do I. (4.00 / 2)
Your average Teabagger 'bot isn't smart enough to pull off any disguises, they can't spell and have a caps lock problem. But just as I suspect many of Kos' hate mail paloozas are written by his friends just for fun, I suspect many of the purity trolls are neocons. Who ARE smart enough to pull it off. They now want OUR party. And if they can take it, they can have it far as I'm concerned. I just won't be in it anymore...

Some are born to weirdness, some attain weirdness and others have weirdness thrust upon them...
- OPOL
[ Parent ]
You (4.00 / 8)
and several others told me very forcefully not to publish my Tinkerbell essay over there.  Now that would have started a shitstorm!  It's still sitting in the garage.  Should I hit the 'open' button on the garage door opener?

Again, these things will follow us back here.  It would be an administration challenge for you.  


i love the smell of bipartisanship in the morning...
smells like...fucktory. -bubanomics

[ Parent ]
There is no rush (4.00 / 6)
let us grok in fullness.

The poll is saying no, so far, and I SURE don't want to chase people out of here.

So let's take our time and fully consider it.

I will post again tomorrow (or so) stating the results and thus the "official position."

AS ALWAYS, individuals can do pretty much whatever they want there, this is more about Teh Blog as an entity, i guess.

Reality is the result of war between two rival groups of programmers,

so....Roar Louder!!!

[ Parent ]
I haven't seen the Tinkerbell essay (4.00 / 3)
if you published it here...is it something about clapping your hands three times and Obama will save you?

"We are in the Age of Shiva, an age of death and rebirth. If we only focus on what is past we feel loss. If we focus on new beginnings we feel anticipation, like looking forward to a new day without knowing quite what the weather is going to be like."
[ Parent ]
Yes (4.00 / 6)
click on my UID (3 times) and find my second to last essay. the GOS version is newer, as I've updated it to go along with the times.  Staying at the ready and such.  


i love the smell of bipartisanship in the morning...
smells like...fucktory. -bubanomics
[ Parent ]
I like it (4.00 / 5)
I never realized that Obama had a secret plan to fix everything at the very end of his second term.

I feel so much better now.

"We are in the Age of Shiva, an age of death and rebirth. If we only focus on what is past we feel loss. If we focus on new beginnings we feel anticipation, like looking forward to a new day without knowing quite what the weather is going to be like."

[ Parent ]
It's like (4.00 / 8)
having a warm glass of milk.  


i love the smell of bipartisanship in the morning...
smells like...fucktory. -bubanomics
[ Parent ]
as a treatment for terminal cancer (4.00 / 7)


"We are in the Age of Shiva, an age of death and rebirth. If we only focus on what is past we feel loss. If we focus on new beginnings we feel anticipation, like looking forward to a new day without knowing quite what the weather is going to be like."
[ Parent ]
Best comment of the day! (4.00 / 4)
[ Parent ]
Reminds me of Harrison Bergeron. nt (4.00 / 1)

[ Parent ]
pardon my ignorance (4.00 / 1)
or faulty memory.  But who?  


i love the smell of bipartisanship in the morning...
smells like...fucktory. -bubanomics
[ Parent ]
Nothing better than the text. (4.00 / 2)
You can make up your own mind-

Harrison Bergeron
by Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

"I like irony except I find that if you just toss your clothes in the dryer for a few minutes you hardly ever have to use it."- ek hornbeck

[ Parent ]
I say post it, if only to play with (4.00 / 1)
drache in the comments for a while.

Suppose it is time to move on to intelligent prey though.

aka CWalter

[ Parent ]
I rarely comment here, but I read often.... (4.00 / 15)
and I do appreciate the atmosphere of  "nuance and consideration". President Obama, and the problems this nation needs to address are complex. I welcome reasoned discussion and disagreement, but I have little tolerance for simple minded rudness. To me, that is not productive activism. If you engage those who do not respond to nuance, what happens to the discussion here?

Thanks for this site. I appreciate all who post here.  

[ Parent ]
I'm all for it. (4.00 / 7)
but I don't want them coming to dinner or as house guests here. I post over there and do not intend to stop. Why should we abandon the ship we sailed in to the rats. Why be polite and allow them to as someone said to me last night 'push the hard left out of the party'. FDR is now a bad dude who wrecked the party and was racist to boot.. As for them being centrist or moderate that is bs. In order to be in the center of anything you need to have varying degrees around you. They are afraid of the real center as it would require them to actually let go of their misplaced fears and stop believing the political fictions they are fed. Worst of all they declare these fictions reality, and have now adopted the same agenda and MO as the authoritarian loving  Bushies.  

It's really bad right now as they have all developed a case of neo-con bed wetting hysteria about the terrist's who might come back as well as the dreaded return of the rights lunatics. Markos was on countdown the other night he said that his people (which he quickly changed to the base lol) were evenly split on the neo-con war revamp and that dkos was a big tent, that were not the right wing lockstep party. They are frightened, vicious, and in denial and are fighting for the everything the opposition coalitions have worked for for the last decade. When people like Michael Moore, Krugman, Jane Hampshire and even Digby are considered the enemy it's time for a reality check. They are not the base they are not even your average voter they are gatekeepers of intolerable staus quo and need to be countered.

So have at it. What is gained by allowing them to enable this shit and call it 'the good'. If FDL can handle it so can we they are becoming the place we used to fight. A parody of the msm gasbags that bills itself as rational and reality. Why allow them to use this platform without resistance. It is now a place where those who oppose the intolerable staus quo and want to stop this train wreck are shut out by the new gatekeepers of power.            

   

[ Parent ]
what shaharazade said (4.00 / 3)


aka conchita
[ Parent ]
tend to agree (4.00 / 3)
You can't tell 'em anything the way that experience will, ultimately. It just gets their backs up.

"We are in the Age of Shiva, an age of death and rebirth. If we only focus on what is past we feel loss. If we focus on new beginnings we feel anticipation, like looking forward to a new day without knowing quite what the weather is going to be like."
[ Parent ]
additionally, if we are so sure we are correct (4.00 / 1)
about President Obama being (in my opinion) a bipartison (half-assing) status quo supporting (corporatist) leader who openly disrespects (my) Progressive values, why not let time prove us correct?  As you alluded to, experience is the greater teacher.

I also agree that the left has a small group that will support the CIC no matter what, just as the R's do.  They are simply entertainment.  And a mechanism that keeps the eye-rolling muscles strong.


aka CWalter

[ Parent ]
I don't know what we should do (0.00 / 0)
I figure we're all kind of working it out on our own, and talking about it, not telling each other what to do so much.

"We are in the Age of Shiva, an age of death and rebirth. If we only focus on what is past we feel loss. If we focus on new beginnings we feel anticipation, like looking forward to a new day without knowing quite what the weather is going to be like."
[ Parent ]
oooh (4.00 / 18)
chompin' at the bit.

While I think this over... here's Jane at FDL with Why Progressive Activists Are Giving Obama a Pass...

There are a lot of reasons why the progressive groups that would be leading campaigns on a variety of fronts against George Bush stay silent when Obama does the same thing.

she goes on to reference that other piece... by Randy Shaw in HuffPo.

Many of the excuses for not holding Clinton accountable are now being made regarding Barack Obama. But those who believe that fear of a Palin Planet will get Democrats to the polls in 2010 are wrong, as scare tactics will not overcome a pervasive sense that the Democrats did not deliver on their pledge to bring "Change We Can Believe In" starting in 2009.

Fortunately, President Obama still has time to deliver for his base. But this will require activists and constituency groups to ramp up public demands for such a course, rather than thinking they are helping the progressive cause by making excuses for a president whose inspirational words about social transformation have not been matched by actions.

Neither of which I have read yet.

No justice, no peace.

LOL (4.00 / 14)
I have been tapdancing around "it" for a long time.

Its frustrating because Dkos could be such a great tool for activism, but activism is no longer allowed there.

Reality is the result of war between two rival groups of programmers,

so....Roar Louder!!!

[ Parent ]
still thinking but one point (4.00 / 14)
I wanted to make in posting those links ... its a current whisper/shout at FDL, HuffPO, and no doubt, every frikking other left leaning blog there is! DKos is probably the only "left leaning" blog (ha!) that has yet to figure out that BHO has thrown us under the bus. And its not just, ya know, us the DFH's or the Hard Far Wild Left either. Its all but The Ruling Class Elites. Under the bus!

We know it. A lot of kossers know it too, but this "sea change" has been dammed up there by the voices of not only the 'bots (can we call them "drones"?) but also the Dem Party Faithful.

sigh.

Just speak The Truth. Which is NOT an "attack" on the bots, or even Obama per se... it shouldnt be overtly that. We all know they will perceive it as such though and go full out with the attacks, or counter-attacks. Fuck them.

Thats really not what it's about.

okay back to my thinking some more. heh.

PS I do appreciate, buhdy, your consideration of DD and the potential fall out here...


No justice, no peace.

[ Parent ]
Its complex (4.00 / 5)
and really, who needs the hassle?

But it felt like time to take the pulse of teh blog on this. It is in MY nature to fight, but I have had hard and painful lessons about collateral damage.

Reality is the result of war between two rival groups of programmers,

so....Roar Louder!!!

[ Parent ]
dammit buhdy (4.00 / 6)

It is in MY nature to fight, but I have had hard and painful lessons about collateral damage.

I know. It is in your nature to fight. To spar. To test and push and push back. Ive seen you do it plenty over there, in the past, {yet almost never here} and there were times when I really wondered why, to what end? What purpose does that serve?  Maybe it gets more eyeballs, rec list, gets people thinking... Next Q: is it worth the cost? Youre the only one who can answer that, for yourself.

Anyway, my nature couldnt be more opposite I guess. At least in blogland. But the question is... again, to what end? What's the desired outcome?

But this will require activists and constituency groups to ramp up public demands for such a course, rather than thinking they are helping the progressive cause by making excuses for a president whose inspirational words about social transformation have not been matched by actions.

Heres another Question... Dkos defines itself as a political blog with the purpose of electing more and better Democrats. So theres that framework as a given. I dont know that its even a "progressive" site at all. Really.

well. I still havent voted in your poll... but going after the bots in and of itself as a plan or strategy, no.... makes no sense.

What if....hmmmm...

No justice, no peace.

[ Parent ]
We and others were way ahead of them. (4.00 / 6)
I guess we didn't have the self-delusions to shed since we never trusted him in the first place.   While the gangs are still there, more and more people are coming out of the closet.  I say my piece.  If I get trolled into oblivion or banned, so be it.  I'm not going out of my way to cause trouble.  I am just being who I am.  
[ Parent ]
Good for you! (4.00 / 2)
Deal is, Obama and his gang (and the gangs at GOS) are no longer representing the will of Democrats at large, any portion of the left, or even the American public. All of whom are by large majorities sick to death of the forever-wars and the bailouts and the continuing thievery of everything we've got. And all of whom want decent health care without enriching the Murder-by-Spreadsheet crowd, just like every other civilized nation on the planet. Obama has no intention of ever delivering anything, and that was made entirely clear by his embracing of leftover neocons for his cabinet and bowing to the crazy Teabaggers in Congress who now represent all of about 15% of the citizenry (all of them certifiable).

Thus GOS will inevitably stop "speaking for" the left, the Democrats, the people or anybody else other than Marcos and his fan club. Very soon, too. We can watch and comment here, but we definitely don't need to become them.

Some are born to weirdness, some attain weirdness and others have weirdness thrust upon them...
- OPOL

[ Parent ]
Yeahbut... (4.00 / 2)
GOS isn't actually a "mainstream Democratic" site either. I'm not at all sure what it's morphed into of late, but it sure ain't about crashing gates via populist fervor anymore.

I am a fighter by nature. And I don't take anything on the intertoobs serious enough to cry about. I earned my thick skin the hard way by taking on some serious Mafioso types decades ago, and running them literally ragged in real life all over the damned country (once hitch-hiked from Boston to Oklahoma past a nationwide FBI APB, ended up stranded in f*cking Oak Ridge and took the first ride out, which turned out to be a crazy redneck wannabe pig who pulled a gun on us...). Those 'bots and purity trolls don't scare me one bit. But I must say I enjoy the atmosphere here a whole lot better than there. Not really something I'd like to see polluted.

Some are born to weirdness, some attain weirdness and others have weirdness thrust upon them...
- OPOL

[ Parent ]
Activist groups will not push back yet, IMHO, at least the (4.00 / 3)
enviro and social justice/health reform ones - because they still see that they have a lot to gain, if they can, from Obama admin.

Peace and civil/human rights groups is another matter.  The admin would have to really turn around on torture, investigations, etc. - and then of course, there's probably no way to get out of Afghanistan decision now, or out of Afghanistan itself for that matter.

Problem is so many folks who should be outraged re War decision have bought into need for health reform and do really believe climate change action is most important.  On which point, Lisa Jackson ROCKS.

[ Parent ]
I think what Obama (4.00 / 3)
says in Copenhagen - and DOES here at home - per climate change will signal the final death knell for the kabuki he's been staging. I absolutely do not believe the hacks and sudden corporate focus on "Climategate" are far removed from his administration and its real backers [i.e. plumbers]. We shall see, of course. But I am certainly not falling for "hope" hype on this. Maybe he'll surprise me.

I'd rather be pleasantly surprised than have my invested hope dashed on the rocks. So I don't invest these days.

Some are born to weirdness, some attain weirdness and others have weirdness thrust upon them...
- OPOL

[ Parent ]
Us Militarism w/ An Obama Happy Face..... (4.00 / 4)
.... is embraced by many at dKos,  Just shows that idiocy has no Repub or Dem dividing line.

Authoritarian political ideologies have a vested interest in promoting fear. ----Susan Sontag
[ Parent ]
perhaps it would be in the interest of (3.00 / 3)
Progressive values to point out the similarities between those that support Bush No Matter What and those that support Obama NMW.  Especially if done as a unit and smartly.  Offhand I can only think of six extremely vocal commentors who I see support Obama to the point of blindness and would paint with that brush.  I think the majority of those who we see supporting Obama are reachable, rational yet perhaps overly hopeful. Obama's own actions and little we do will compel them to see the truth.  

But the six?  They need that flashlight right in the sockets.

aka CWalter

[ Parent ]
Edger is right (4.00 / 6)
"thoughtful questioning, or reasoned critique" may, de facto be taking on the unthinking and irrational Obamabots, but it isn't a purpose.

A purpose is progressives and democratic principles taking back the democratic party.

Now to the definition of progressive and democratic principles.

"The second teaching from the golden eternity is that there never was a first teaching from the golden eternity. So be sure."  Jack Kerouac


That definiton is a big part of what we are doing here (4.00 / 9)
I hope.

And there is no doubt that this would be a HUGE distraction from that.

But I wanted to give folks a chance to weigh in. And express their feelings as well.

Reality is the result of war between two rival groups of programmers,

so....Roar Louder!!!

[ Parent ]
on the other hand (4.00 / 6)
it might give you a niche and push traffic to the site, ala Armando.

"The second teaching from the golden eternity is that there never was a first teaching from the golden eternity. So be sure."  Jack Kerouac


[ Parent ]
Oh yeah, big time! (4.00 / 7)
That is something I have thought about and had discussions about that very thing.And rejected it.  An Anti-Obama and Antibot site would get a LOT of traffic.

But as anyone who knows me knows, I am not in this for that.

I want to be absolutely and positively clear that increasing  traffic or my personal 'popularity' is not not not why I am bringing this up.


Reality is the result of war between two rival groups of programmers,

so....Roar Louder!!!

[ Parent ]
Huh, thats what I immediately thought, (4.00 / 6)
I thought wow, that could mean a lot of eyeballs. Then I thought, that it is kind of like moving a very valuable chess piece onto the board maybe a little too early. I think we need to work on campaigns to kick out blue dogs first. Then as that will weed out many conservatives go for pressuring congress more effectively and the administration.

Okay, now reading this comment makes sense, the other comment not so much. I need to get some coffee.  

[ Parent ]
I think reasoning with them is a total waste of time. (4.00 / 4)
When we should be trying to figure out what, they still want to go in circles on why.  Why is obvious.  What is a complete mystery.  OpenLeft is wrestling with what as well.  Lots of blogs are.  
[ Parent ]
The reason I left (4.00 / 9)
Was for this very unreasoned, blind loyalty ... not just for the Democratic point of view but the stifling of any rationalized debate about 9-11.
Not to mention the viral, venomous blasts when a poster didn't toe the DK line.

I welcome a rational debate with passionate, differing points of view ... barring personal attacks.

Support Obama, don't support Obama ... but fercrissakes ...at least back it up with a fucking coherent thought.

I look good in tin foil

Thought is the missing ingredient for sure (4.00 / 6)


Reality is the result of war between two rival groups of programmers,

so....Roar Louder!!!

[ Parent ]
It's not ... (4.00 / 18)
... the Obamabots.

It's the admin., and most specifically Meteor Blades.  He has already started his own program (which reminds me much of Obama, lol) - the whole "only criticize your own side" and so he only criticizes us and does not criticize the Obamaphiles.  He will, however, disagree with the Obamaphiles and try to lead by example by showing how to argue with them according to his own standards.

Both "sides" are unhappy with this, imo -- the Obamaphiles know he doesn't agree with them and aren't placated by his moderation of the opposition, and the opposition to the Obamaphiles certainly aren't placated by being criticized and the equivalences being made by the whole "Obamarox and Obamasux" kind of reasoning.

So I voted no.  The site is always changing, and this too shall pass.  We need to find a new way.

I'll always love Daily Kos because it was such a brave and amazing innovation during a time no one was speaking out at all.  That form of blogging, the software itself that revolutionized online conversation, will always be around, even after certain posters no longer hold sway, imo.

Also, I am seeing a whole new group of folks who are very good at taking on the Obamaphiles (bruh1 is one of them -check his/her comments).

I think there are more fun and rewarding things for us to do, and the Orange is always there if we want to zing someone!

we-----llll (4.00 / 5)
If the bots weren't so botish, MB would not be in the position he is in so I sure can't blame him for the phenomenon. Though I agree he has not handled it well at all.

Reality is the result of war between two rival groups of programmers,

so....Roar Louder!!!

[ Parent ]
Oh ... (4.00 / 4)
... I don't think it's a matter of blame.  I do think that MB is setting up his own paradigm of moderation, though, and eventually we'll see how that works out.  Thus far it doesn't work for me but then Daily Kos wasn't invented for my convenience, heh.

I think that this process will ultimately work out and that the folks there who will fight the kind of thinking we're opposed to will ultimately hold sway.

I've had my battles there in the past and I just don't think this one's for me, especially as I have seen some folks who do a far better job than I could in opposing this kind of rhetoric and thinking.

[ Parent ]
I agree, Kitty. (4.00 / 9)
DK was a wonderful place for me when I felt no one in my circle of friends, family were as angry, as frightened as I when the right took up 9/11 as an excuse to trash the constitution and many of us along with it. And the shame I felt as an American when we bombed Iraq. How people avidly watched it on tv! (what's up with that passive aggression)And I miss some of the people I met there.  I remember how excited I was when DK came to Chicago and I met the garden bloggers especially.  So I was hurt when I got punked as a dead ender, bitter knitter, warmonger (moi) and selfish foolish woman who didn't understand the power of Obama.  In another life, there is, however, one blogger I'd like to meet up with in a dark alley (I won't be 5'2 woman - I'll be a 6'3 in shape Xtreme fighter).  (I know BD - I'm workin on it.)


"Disappointment and bourbon are hard on the heart."  (Amanda McBroom, Errol Flynn)
[ Parent ]
LOL ... (4.00 / 5)
... to the alley scenario!

I think yours is a very perceptive comment, Xanthe.

Having said that, I'm glad buhdy wrote this essay.  The feelings have been simmering for a while and should be dealt with and it's a real issue.

It's a real opposition, and the fact it's based on so much emotion only proves the personal IS political.

I think this is a good discussion and one we ought to have.

[ Parent ]
interesting and sophisticated analysis (4.00 / 6)
I voted yes but I should have read more first...if what buhdy is talking about is something like (example) setting up a username called "Docudharma" and posting essay after essay attacking Obamabots, eek. Not so much. Better to keep on as we are now, we're doing all right.

Agreed about bruh1; I spotted that one many months back as a sharp cookie and independent thinker.

"We are in the Age of Shiva, an age of death and rebirth. If we only focus on what is past we feel loss. If we focus on new beginnings we feel anticipation, like looking forward to a new day without knowing quite what the weather is going to be like."

[ Parent ]
He has articulated ... (4.00 / 5)
... so well the actual mindset being dealt with here.  He also commented in some thread or another that he had emailed MB about the tapdancing and diversionary tactics of the Obamaphiles, and I think (tho have no proof) that MB helped in formulating a real response to this as well.
[ Parent ]
Smile and wave, smile and wave (4.00 / 17)
Thats a NO, personally I see nothing to be gained.  The true believers will not change or brook any disloyalty as they define it and will never waiver.  Those on the margins will eventually see the Mr Obama is just another fallible human and accept some critique.  
Actively opposing the Obamabots will only stir the shit doing a disservice not only to DK but to DD in that we have our sanctuary here and its a peaceful place of mostly reasoned thought, courtesy, concern and love.  Doing something like this IMHO would sacrifice that.  

"Whatever depends on conditions is empty of intrinsic reality"
What excellent instruction could be more amazing than this discovery? Jey Tsong Khapa - Essence of True Eloquence Translated by Thurman, R.    
What Spindrifter says. (4.00 / 8)
I'm real, real new here but I am struggling to work in a positive political manner and keep my bloodpessure down.

What does it gain us here (or as concerned Progressives) to put on these particular gloves.

Let's not give them our energy - let's keep it for better stuff.  In a way, it's a form of flattery - let's not.


"Disappointment and bourbon are hard on the heart."  (Amanda McBroom, Errol Flynn)

[ Parent ]
Disappointing (2.91 / 11)
to see the seeds of a hatefest planted here.
Can I second that (4.00 / 5)


"Whatever depends on conditions is empty of intrinsic reality"
What excellent instruction could be more amazing than this discovery? Jey Tsong Khapa - Essence of True Eloquence Translated by Thurman, R.    
[ Parent ]
LOL,The seeds? (4.00 / 13)
It it is the hatefest over there that drove me off!

You are ok with that, kes?

You are ok with what happened to Shiz?

You think it is US who started the hate fest, who 'planted the seeds?'

You are joking right?

Or do you only see one side these days?

Reality is the result of war between two rival groups of programmers,

so....Roar Louder!!!

[ Parent ]
it's an orange wind (4.00 / 7)
that spreads the seeds of hatefest.  Johnny Kossleseed wandering the land...
[ Parent ]
You have a picture for that? :P (4.00 / 6)
An orange picture, perhaps?

I don't like Congress.
[ Parent ]
Dude, kestrel was involved in (4.00 / 3)
the original flamewar. So no, I don't think he's with you.

I don't like Congress.
[ Parent ]
Kestrel (4.00 / 1)
tried to politely but firmly disagree with substance.
Kestrel never flamed you or adhominemed you.
Kestrel would not do you like that.
Think about it.
[ Parent ]
I disagree with kestrel, (4.00 / 4)
and kestrel was not polite, but Shiz is not going to get into that here.

I don't like Congress.
[ Parent ]
If I was rude (4.00 / 3)
I apologize.
I do recall saying I felt you had done better and more productive work, and that bashing Obama was the quickest ticket to the reclist next to a margin-trashing photodump, but I also remember pointing you to Vor's music diary and was careful not to attack you personally.
Am I allowed to disagree?
I'm glad we're having this conversation; I was hoping you saw a difference between me and the assholes who hit you with a blowtorch.
I guess that didn't come through.
[ Parent ]
Yes, we are certainly allowed to disagree. (4.00 / 7)
It's just a little bit too close to home for me to talk about quite yet, but I definitely remember it happening differently.

Please give me some time, kestrel.

I don't like Congress.

[ Parent ]
You are one of the ones (3.25 / 4)
I feel can be reasoned with.  We are not talking about YOU.  Although some others may have different experiences.  The fact that you have a UID here says that you want dialog, which automatically separates you from any discussion of "bots" IMO.  Since I am not shiz, I see what you're saying.  Perhaps it's too soon, like she said.  Give it some time.  


i love the smell of bipartisanship in the morning...
smells like...fucktory. -bubanomics
[ Parent ]
You gonna answer my questions? (4.00 / 3)


Reality is the result of war between two rival groups of programmers,

so....Roar Louder!!!

[ Parent ]
I did, didn't I? (0.00 / 0)
No, I am not ok with what they did to Shiz.
No, I don't think anyone here started anything.
I think there's irrationality on both sides.
I think that tagging people with a label and then going after them on that basis reminds me of the ugog.
I think if you'd like me to render a catalog of everything Obama has or hasn't done that i don't like, I could arrange to render that, if it'll please you.
I also think you have no basis (for example) to hang a label like that on ME (for instance.) If you disagree with that, I'm willing to click your links.
[ Parent ]
Get it through yer head dude (4.00 / 5)
It has NOTHING to do with Obama.

It has to do with the BEHAVIOR of his supporters.

Reality is the result of war between two rival groups of programmers,

so....Roar Louder!!!

[ Parent ]
And (0.00 / 0)
his detractors.
[ Parent ]
Am I a detractor? Just for the record (4.00 / 1)
and to see what YOUR standards are.

Reality is the result of war between two rival groups of programmers,

so....Roar Louder!!!

[ Parent ]
I guess not (4.00 / 2)
I just find it disorienting to see you so ready to use a label like "obamabot."
Maybe you see something I don't, or something.
I dunno.
Everything has changed.
[ Parent ]
Yes it has (4.00 / 8)
When someone like Shiz is attacked the way she was, things have most certainly changed.

Please tune in tomorrow for what i hope will be a more constructive way of talking about it.

Reality is the result of war between two rival groups of programmers,

so....Roar Louder!!!

[ Parent ]
Kestrel That term came out as a reaction to all the (0.00 / 0)
"shut the fuck up" diaries that came from people like dansac, troubador, jsfox, and maimondies (or however the fuck you spell it).

It was a reaction to assaults, not a new front of attack.

They have nothing in their whole Imperial arsenal to break one Irishman who won't be broken- Bobby Sands

[ Parent ]
Well, I'm pretty sure that his detractors (4.00 / 3)
aren't "Obamabots". But I could be wrong about that.

I thought we were talking about them, specifically.

I don't like Congress.

[ Parent ]
NAh (4.00 / 4)
I see both sides of it.
I also see people over there to whom Obama can do no RIGHT.
I see a lot of polarization and a bunch of people who want all of something as of January 21st of this year.
I see a lot of over the top ness.
No, I am not ok with what they did to Shiz.
I'm also not ok with blackwaterdog fanboi diaries flying straight to the rec list.
I'm also not ok with not being allowed to be extremely conflicted on a number of issues.  
[ Parent ]
So how is this a hatefest exactly? (4.00 / 8)
I repeat....There is stuff you don't like that THEY do, but if we respond to it we are "planting the seeds of hate?'

How do you figger, dude?

Reality is the result of war between two rival groups of programmers,

so....Roar Louder!!!

[ Parent ]
I guess you're going to fight them here (0.00 / 0)
so you don't have to fight them over there.
[ Parent ]
sigh, whatever dude (4.00 / 3)
Here we go with the personal stuff, so I am a coward now huh?

Afraid to fight "them" over there?

If you want to think the worst of me after all these years and ascribe nasty shit and smear me, you go right ahead.

I would never and have NEVER treated you like that, even on your worst days

Kinda puts you RIGHT in the stereotype don't it....WB?

Reality is the result of war between two rival groups of programmers,

so....Roar Louder!!!

[ Parent ]
Didn't mean that (4.00 / 9)
as personally as it sounded.
It's just that the shit over there with respect to this issue is beginning to look like IP flamewars, and I hate to see it spread anywhere else.
Look, man, I'm almost done over there myself.
I don't have much else to contribute, and very little holds my attention anymore.
And I'm bitter about that.
I didn't mean to take it out on you.
It's just that it's al starting to feel poisonous, and I don't know how to keep participating and yet get away from it.

If you want to think the worst of me after all these years and ascribe nasty shit and smear me, you go right ahead.

Hpefully you know me better than to think that based on one comment in four years.


[ Parent ]
It IS poisonous! (4.00 / 8)
As we can see from this exchange my brother.

I am and have been wondering and working on how to get rid of the poison.

It is driving ALL the good people from over there. It tears my heart apart to watch it.

So the question is....What do we DO about it?

HUGS!!!

Reality is the result of war between two rival groups of programmers,

so....Roar Louder!!!

[ Parent ]
Well, for starters (4.00 / 4)
i offer you water

I don't have the answer. I just know there's a lot of shit going on.
I don't know what to think about Afghanistan. Nothing seems like the right answer.
I don't like the way hcr is getting weaker and weaker thanks to our own side.
With Democrats like some of these, who needs Republicans?
I see a lot of equivocating. But I see a lot of tunnel vision too.

[ Parent ]
And i offer it to you (4.00 / 7)
I will frame the discussion differently tomorrow and see what happens, lol.

But something has to give.

I love you man.

Reality is the result of war between two rival groups of programmers,

so....Roar Louder!!!

[ Parent ]
phew (4.00 / 7)
Photobucket

I gotta go start dinner.


No justice, no peace.

[ Parent ]
Love you too bro. (4.00 / 3)

[ Parent ]
Hello.... (4.00 / 11)
They don't really matter.  What matters is that the biggest baddest reform blog in town has been neutered.  Who started it, and who did what first or last fogs up the lens.  Obama and the Dems have flagrantly sold us out on more issues than we care to count, and there's nothing we can do about it including discuss it at dkos.  Kind of sad.    
[ Parent ]
kestrel9000 (4.00 / 6)
The offer of water is a great way to change the tone of the back & forth.
A most excellent offer & reciprocation.
See, the place still has it`s elders remember their youths, & the precious spice, though sharing water made them brothers.
[ Parent ]
Food fight? (4.00 / 2)


I don't like Congress.
[ Parent ]
Nope. Water baloons. (0.00 / 0)


"By the pricking of my thumb, something wicked this way comes.", Wm. Shakespeare, "Macbeth"
[ Parent ]
To here! (4.00 / 8)
It is driving ALL the good people from over there.

To here Buhdy ... to here!

I was amazed when i made the venture to find that the Best of Kos was already here.  

I look good in tin foil

[ Parent ]
I only wish it were so (4.00 / 9)
a lot have come but there are a LOT of MIA too

Reality is the result of war between two rival groups of programmers,

so....Roar Louder!!!

[ Parent ]
A lot have to internalize. (4.00 / 3)
Obama ran on HOPE, and while we were foolish for investing, we had so very little left from Darth Cheney's reign to hope for. I consider it a masterful - but dastardly - psychological crime against the people. When it's over there may not be enough pieces to salvage. They did it on purpose.

They did it because they're terrified of us. They HAD to divide and conquer, kill all our illusions, our freedoms, our beliefs about ourselves and our nation, and our hopes so callously manipulated. Because if they didn't, they were facing revolution for this end-game cash-out and utter, final, irreparable destruction of America and the Dream. "They" being those who really own the government and call the shots, who don't have D's or R's after their names and don't have to campaign for reelection.

Some are born to weirdness, some attain weirdness and others have weirdness thrust upon them...
- OPOL

[ Parent ]
Not to get in between you two guys - (4.00 / 6)
but I'm sad you're bitter, Kestrel.  And BK - come on, you're two good guys.  

Lots of nerve to post here between you, I know - but I never did know when to keep my mouth shut.  Plus I didn't even read the diary in question -

I'm leaving the thread - pass me some of that testosterone - I could use it.  There's a deficit hawk on our local library board that bugging me.

"Disappointment and bourbon are hard on the heart."  (Amanda McBroom, Errol Flynn)

[ Parent ]
You should be concerned (4.00 / 2)
about the "do no right" high IUD folks, IMO. I think they're neocon plants. Not that I think he's doing very much right, because I think he's surrounded himself with precisely the wrong advisors and comrades. They're leading him astray, and he either doesn't get it or they're holding something over him. If the latter is the case, this country is way beyond f*cked and we might as well accept it. If that is what is, then acceptance will be our starting point for doing something about it.

Fighting with neocon plants and 'bots is just another divide and conquer tactic. Just like what they've done to the Teabaggers (only more sophisticated because at this end the targets have higher IQ's).

Some are born to weirdness, some attain weirdness and others have weirdness thrust upon them...
- OPOL

[ Parent ]
Hmmm (4.00 / 10)
Being Ok with something and not responding in kind are not the same thing.  Whats been done to people with dissimilar ideas over there is wrong, absolutely wrong but I for one don't want to see anyone lower themselves to a level even close to that.  
Thats what makes this place a haven    

"Whatever depends on conditions is empty of intrinsic reality"
What excellent instruction could be more amazing than this discovery? Jey Tsong Khapa - Essence of True Eloquence Translated by Thurman, R.    
[ Parent ]
Well said. (4.00 / 3)

[ Parent ]
When I realized (4.00 / 8)
That I WAS going down to that level is when I left.

Saved my frikkin soul, I think

Reality is the result of war between two rival groups of programmers,

so....Roar Louder!!!

[ Parent ]
Sounds familiar (4.00 / 4)
though I rarely posted there I couldn't stand the flaming so I barely go there anymore but I'm grateful for this place and don't want to see the same thing happen here.

Ah well another day closes at the flag shop and the dog needs a walk.  BTW did you know Pearl Harbor day is a half staff day.

"Whatever depends on conditions is empty of intrinsic reality"
What excellent instruction could be more amazing than this discovery? Jey Tsong Khapa - Essence of True Eloquence Translated by Thurman, R.    

[ Parent ]
You're lucky I'm in a good mood today, kestrel. (4.00 / 3)


I don't like Congress.
[ Parent ]
Well (4.00 / 1)
I'm glad you are........
[ Parent ]
I would not call it a hatefest. Many of us see that site, (4.00 / 9)
which professes itself to be the ying and yang of progressive democratic blogs, even going so far as calling itself liberal, as hindering true progressivism and liberalism in the democratic party.  Just as true Christians should call out the Phelps' of the world, and good cops should call out the bad ones, maybe it is necessary to call out a place not truly representing what they say they are.  
[ Parent ]
Yeah, what he said. (4.00 / 4)


I don't like Congress.
[ Parent ]
I just noticed your sigline (4.00 / 5)
rotflmao!

"We are in the Age of Shiva, an age of death and rebirth. If we only focus on what is past we feel loss. If we focus on new beginnings we feel anticipation, like looking forward to a new day without knowing quite what the weather is going to be like."
[ Parent ]
:P (4.00 / 2)


I don't like Congress.
[ Parent ]
Me (4.00 / 2)
I don't get it.....
[ Parent ]
Uhm ... (4.00 / 2)
See downthread or upthread, where bubbanomics asks me about the sig and I explain.

I don't like Congress.
[ Parent ]
Hear, hear! n/t (4.00 / 1)


Some are born to weirdness, some attain weirdness and others have weirdness thrust upon them...
- OPOL
[ Parent ]
Where's Inky99 weigh-in? (4.00 / 9)
I would imagine he might have a few choice thoughts. :o)

One thing about this ... they will eventually eat their own as rational thought gets pushed out further and those with good conscience can no longer stand idly by.  

I look good in tin foil

Inky posted a comment recently (4.00 / 3)
stating that he thought this site needed to evolve beyond being a "satellite" of a sort, of DK.

I thought that insightful and tend to agree. Many people here blog in a variety of places. That does not mean we need to establish any kind of official policy of going after any subset of people on any one blog, no matter how well-intentioned.

It would, I think, diminish us. I voted yes, but I'd change it if I could...I did not understand the question.

"We are in the Age of Shiva, an age of death and rebirth. If we only focus on what is past we feel loss. If we focus on new beginnings we feel anticipation, like looking forward to a new day without knowing quite what the weather is going to be like."

[ Parent ]
This reminds of the Green Party (4.00 / 4)
A lot of people hate the fact that they're seen as (and sometimes can be) a refuge for dissatisfied Democrats.  But I think it's whatever - Daily Kos has about 100x the members as this site so I don't think it's really a problem, as long as we don't become completely dependent on that site (which we don't seem to be, given this very discussion).

Vote for yourself at www.ni4d.org!
[ Parent ]
but another question (4.00 / 3)
has to do with how much we are defined by it. It's a subtler kind of dependence, but it's still dependence.

"We are in the Age of Shiva, an age of death and rebirth. If we only focus on what is past we feel loss. If we focus on new beginnings we feel anticipation, like looking forward to a new day without knowing quite what the weather is going to be like."
[ Parent ]
As one of the newest converts from Dkos to DD, (4.00 / 12)
I would just like to say that I voted "yes", and here's why:

I was talking on the phone earlier today with a good friend, a fellow Kossack. He and I both agree that this Obamabot business is not only fracturing the Democratic party, but it's fracturing Daily Kos. We both defined an "Obamabot" as someone who is unable, for whatever reason, criticize President Obama in any way, shape, or form. Obamabots look for excuses for Obama's behavior in EVERYTHING!, and they cannot speak rationally or logically to the state of our government.

That being said, if we don't start bridging this divide sooner or later, I have absolutely no doubt that, in 2012, a Republican will be elected to the Highest Office in the Land.

And that scares the bejesus outta me.

I don't like Congress.

They say they don't mind "reasonable: criticism (4.00 / 8)
but they can never really say what that is.

I have asked for examples of "approved" and "acceptable" criticism....and never gotten an answer.


Reality is the result of war between two rival groups of programmers,

so....Roar Louder!!!

[ Parent ]
reasonable criticisms: acceptable examples (4.00 / 7)
(1) Obama's tie has a small coffee stain.
(2) Obama's haircut is a little too short.
(3) Obama's 11 dimensional chess board is hard to see.

Even those must be posted with care.

[ Parent ]
You forgot (4.00 / 8)
Obama can't bowl.
[ Parent ]
HATER!!!!!!!!!!!!! (4.00 / 8)
He is practicing now, and working hard to bowl better!

He has only been bowling for xxx months!

Reality is the result of war between two rival groups of programmers,

so....Roar Louder!!!

[ Parent ]
he DID kill that fly ... nt (4.00 / 8)


No justice, no peace.
[ Parent ]
That was totally kickass. (4.00 / 10)
Very ninja.

I don't like Congress.
[ Parent ]
do cheetos lead to (4.00 / 5)
orange feet?  I suppose if you're a creative eater...
[ Parent ]
No, see: (4.00 / 6)
my original sig was "Daily Kos sucks". But Lady Libertine informed me that we don't trash Dkos here, so I changed my sig. I just wanted it to be short and pithy and about Dkos. :)

I don't like Congress.
[ Parent ]
I think I've figured it out (4.00 / 8)
from my diary:

Here is what we all need to do right now, no matter what the issue is you've decided is more important than my headache.

   Think of President Obama as Tinkerbell, the Broadway version. Then think of what we want him to do, concentrate on it, then CLAP, louder and louder still, until he hears us in his mind, and magically, like Tinkerbell, he wakes up and does what we want him to do!  

Ir's really so simple, I wish I had thought of it sooner.  

And really, this is the only way to do it without upsetting someone.  

But that isn't enough.  We all must stop criticizing this President "from the left".  This is very important if we want to keep the momentum.  If I must criticize the president, it should be "from the right".  

From now on, since the President now owns them, the occupations in Afghanistan and Iraq will be called the "Glorious And Permanent Wars to Win Freedom for the Middle East".  Remember, this is different than Bush's wars.  So if a drone misses its target or goes into another sovereign nation, and wipes out a village, and I feel the need to criticize, I will  say, "You have to break a few eggs if you want to make an omelet.  This is no time to cut and run."  I'm sure the president will be able to decode that properly.  He's a very smart guy.  

From now on, when the president seems to be extending Bush era power abuse rather than restoring the constitutional republic he is a expert on, I'll say, "Mr. Obama has our best interest at heart.  He has found the right balance between freedom and safety. It's not for you decide for him what that balance is." Mr. Obama Has Got. This.  

No need to support EFF, the ACLU, or especially the Liberal Communist rag, FDL.  It's counter productive, and only gives our enemies more ammunition.  Plus, President Obama has a secret plan to fix all this already, in his second term, right before he leaves office, by Presidential Decree.  So let's get to work re-electing him now or else we'll lose our freedoms!  

From now on, when Rahm Emanuel seems to be sabotaging progressive initiatives in legislation, I'll say, "The WH Chief of Staff and the President's agendas are clearly separate.  Stop implying the President wants what Rahm wants."  The President will then put Rahm on a shorter leash.  

From now on, the "rights" of GLBT people are secondary to the push for health care reforms.  Until the next item on the agenda other than GLBT rights.  After all, rights don't exist on their own, we hand them out like candy, when its convenient.  So timing is unimportant.  Obama is with you people, get over it and stop being so ungrateful.  

   Clap LOUDER!

And actually reforming health care is secondary to getting a "win" for Health Care Reform Obama.  No need to think too hard on this, it will only give me another headache.  No need to ask if I can afford whatever reform comes my way, It'll be for my own good.  Why have I been so selfish all this time?  

And really, really important: Do Not Read Glenn Greenwald.  Ever.  It will only frustrate and confuse you.  

wobamah2o


i love the smell of bipartisanship in the morning...
smells like...fucktory. -bubanomics

[ Parent ]
great points all of em. (4.00 / 6)
My read though is that as noted they, the Oamabots are known to eat there young LOL (great picture in my mind), eventually the reasonable folk will like you and others be forced out to places like this, leave of their own accord or fight back as active DK participants.  
As to a Repgunican President in 12',yep scares the living hell outta' me but I don't see arguing with unthinking obamabots as having any more effect than arguing with hard right religious types who believe in 5000 Y/O world or the coming of the end times when the temple is rebuilt and the chosen tribes return to Israel.  
I'm no mind reader but I have faith that the zealots will fall away or be marginalized sooner rather than later.  

"Whatever depends on conditions is empty of intrinsic reality"
What excellent instruction could be more amazing than this discovery? Jey Tsong Khapa - Essence of True Eloquence Translated by Thurman, R.    
[ Parent ]
I hope you're right. (4.00 / 2)
I guess my thinking in taking on the 'bots is that they're LIBERALS so they must have SOME brains.

I dunno, maybe they just all live inside The Beltway or somethin'.

I don't like Congress.

[ Parent ]
it's not that they can't criticize Obama (4.00 / 11)
it's that they won't let anybody else do it, that is the problem.  

"We are in the Age of Shiva, an age of death and rebirth. If we only focus on what is past we feel loss. If we focus on new beginnings we feel anticipation, like looking forward to a new day without knowing quite what the weather is going to be like."
[ Parent ]
lol, interesting distinction! (4.00 / 6)


Reality is the result of war between two rival groups of programmers,

so....Roar Louder!!!

[ Parent ]
OK, but I've never seen some of 'em (4.00 / 2)
do that. So. What diaries are you goin' into? :P

I don't like Congress.
[ Parent ]
Oh, hello there (4.00 / 4)
I see you haven't peaced from the blogosphere, just from DKos.  Nice to see you - I was worried you'd be gone from my life!

Vote for yourself at www.ni4d.org!
[ Parent ]
It's like your little brother (4.00 / 1)
No one else was allowed to beat him up.  Only I was qualified. ;)


i love the smell of bipartisanship in the morning...
smells like...fucktory. -bubanomics
[ Parent ]
he's their dog, and they get to beat him. (0.00 / 0)
Good point.

"We are in the Age of Shiva, an age of death and rebirth. If we only focus on what is past we feel loss. If we focus on new beginnings we feel anticipation, like looking forward to a new day without knowing quite what the weather is going to be like."
[ Parent ]
This is interesting (4.00 / 6)
I have not thought about it this way before - the people that are divisive are the so-called Obamabots.  They are stopping reasonable discussion.  Buhdy, I think that's how you need to frame this: concede that there are unreasonable people on both sides (but also mention that there are always people who will be opposed to anyone in power - like me!), but be forceful (although not off-putting to moderates in this debate) about how it is the people who unreasonably defend Obama (don't use the term Obamabot or that'll set everyone off) who are dividing Democrats and DKos and making it an unreasonable place to be.

That's my $.02 about how to "take them on."

Vote for yourself at www.ni4d.org!

[ Parent ]
At this point (4.00 / 1)
I am not at all sure there's any difference between Democrats and Republicans, so it wouldn't matter. Obama obviously thinks so too, since he's got so many Republicans in his entourage.

Some are born to weirdness, some attain weirdness and others have weirdness thrust upon them...
- OPOL
[ Parent ]
I don't think its the divide that's the problem. (4.00 / 3)
It's Obama and his merry men. The bigger issue is how little respect the Democrats have for their base, and by base I don't necessarily mean us.  I'm talking about unions, gays, liberals, etc.  Until we have the power to make them watch their backs, we're ATMs and vote machines.  Of course I'll still love you in the morning darling.  ;)
[ Parent ]
whirrrrrr.. click. click. zing! (4.00 / 13)

I don't know about you, buhdy (4.00 / 4)
but I took mine off awhile ago.  

"We are in the Age of Shiva, an age of death and rebirth. If we only focus on what is past we feel loss. If we focus on new beginnings we feel anticipation, like looking forward to a new day without knowing quite what the weather is going to be like."
EVERYONE should take on the Obamabots. (4.00 / 12)
Not only here, but at Daily Kos as well.  The many good, reality-based diarists and commenters at Daily Kos who are not taken in by the cheerleading flimflammery are still fighting the good fight and they need our support over there.

Not only is Obamadolatry not conducive to real change, it is positively standing in the way of change.  The mindless Obama cheerleadersare just as bad as the mindless Reagan cheerleaders or mindless Bush cheerleaders (if there still are any), and for exactly the same reason.  Blind partisanship is not truth, and has no use for truth.

I'm just about healed (4.00 / 9)
from the last battle, lol.

I am grokking how to go back in a constructive way, but sometimes fighting is constructive

Reality is the result of war between two rival groups of programmers,

so....Roar Louder!!!

[ Parent ]
Alright, like Edger asked above thread, (4.00 / 5)
maybe I'm not understanding this fight. Are we then becoming an anti-Obama site, since we're not going over to Dkos to do this? What, exactly, would this "fighting" entail?

I don't like Congress.
[ Parent ]
This thread has clarified some stuff for me (4.00 / 6)
I am going to figure out how to express it and try again tomorrow.

Reality is the result of war between two rival groups of programmers,

so....Roar Louder!!!

[ Parent ]
I actually don't see myself as anti-OBAMA . . . (4.00 / 8)
. . . even now, although I never was taken in by him (despite, grudgingly, voting for him).  I still think relentless, and I mean relentless, pressure from the left may have some positive effect on him, and on public policy.  At any rate, there's no point, I think, in our setting up as an anti-OBAMA site--until and unless the time comes that we have to primary him, but that time isn't here yet.

But I think all progressives should be calling out the Obamabots whenever they lie, which is frequently:  "greatest president ever"; "has accomplished more in one year than any president in history"; "never said he wouldn't escalate in the middle east," etc., etc.  

[ Parent ]
I agree with you. (4.00 / 10)
The only way Obama will succeed in his own liberal wishes is if we pressure him.

I remember Eric Holder said something to that effect when he started dealing with prosecutions over torture.  He commented about how there was no loud voice in America for justice.

They can't possibly accomplish these kinds of aims without us pressuring them.

The problem with the Obamaphiles is that they don't really want him to succeed so much as they wish the status quo to remain and their own comfort to be catered to.

I have never thought of this site as anti-Obama.  It is, however, definitely anti-Obamaphile and that entire way of thinking.

[ Parent ]
Or that entire way of NOT thinking, . . . (4.00 / 3)
. . . as I'd put it.
[ Parent ]
Preventing effective application (4.00 / 3)
of the very pressure you say he needs in order to do his job is precisely what the 'bots are all about. They're doing a fairly admirable job of it too, while successfully driving thousands of engaged liberals and progressives who could apply that pressure away from that quest. Positively Rovian.

We're not anti-Obama. We're just engaged liberals and progressives who see what's happening and are not happy about it. Plus some of us are still licking wounds delivered by the 'bots... §;o)

Some are born to weirdness, some attain weirdness and others have weirdness thrust upon them...
- OPOL

[ Parent ]
I would say that this is pretty much an (0.00 / 0)
anti-Obama and anti-Democrat site already.  As the saying goes:  I didn't leave the party, it left me.  I think that about sums it up.  We all be just as happy to be happy with the Democrats, but they sure as hell don't make it easy.  I'm done enough that I'm voting third party or Republican.  
[ Parent ]
I have a lot (4.00 / 7)
of "healing" to do after this last round. It opened some very old "wounds" and exacerbated some that were just starting to heal. At this point, I may have burned my bridge back with my last comment. I'm not sure that you returning to the "battlefield" will accomplish anything constructive with the sociopaths. I can deal with the "true believers" who stay with the substance of why we disagree, it's the trolls that infest the threads whose only purpose is to throw mud pies is what I can no longer tolerate. Nor can I tolerate the administration of the site ignoring or tacitly defending it.

"By the pricking of my thumb, something wicked this way comes.", Wm. Shakespeare, "Macbeth"
[ Parent ]
if I can go back (4.00 / 2)
you can. And, I haven't actually left. Not lately, at least.

There is NOTHING they have on you that they don't have on me.

Now, if you don't WANT to go back, that's another matter. You gotta take care of yourself to do any good.

"We are in the Age of Shiva, an age of death and rebirth. If we only focus on what is past we feel loss. If we focus on new beginnings we feel anticipation, like looking forward to a new day without knowing quite what the weather is going to be like."

[ Parent ]
Miep I appreciate (4.00 / 2)
your support but there is way more. Suffice it to say, it will be a very long time before I do it again.

"By the pricking of my thumb, something wicked this way comes.", Wm. Shakespeare, "Macbeth"
[ Parent ]
There is room here (4.00 / 3)
for people with a wide variety of relationships (or lack thereof) with naranja, and that is likely an ideal situation, or at least as good as it can get under the circumstances.

"We are in the Age of Shiva, an age of death and rebirth. If we only focus on what is past we feel loss. If we focus on new beginnings we feel anticipation, like looking forward to a new day without knowing quite what the weather is going to be like."
[ Parent ]
That's why (4.00 / 4)
Im still here and keep leaving there.

"By the pricking of my thumb, something wicked this way comes.", Wm. Shakespeare, "Macbeth"
[ Parent ]
around and around and around we go (4.00 / 4)
and here we stop, everyone knows!

"We are in the Age of Shiva, an age of death and rebirth. If we only focus on what is past we feel loss. If we focus on new beginnings we feel anticipation, like looking forward to a new day without knowing quite what the weather is going to be like."
[ Parent ]
It's a knife fight over there. (4.00 / 3)
Maybe take a gun? ;-)
[ Parent ]
Metaphorically speaking. (4.00 / 5)
Of course.
[ Parent ]
that makes me think of bloggers (4.00 / 6)
who write these hugely researched essays, compleat with hugely researched comment rebuttals to ignorant comments, and STILL get flamed.

I don't think guns work on some of those folks.

Maybe we should try puns?

"We are in the Age of Shiva, an age of death and rebirth. If we only focus on what is past we feel loss. If we focus on new beginnings we feel anticipation, like looking forward to a new day without knowing quite what the weather is going to be like."

[ Parent ]
Oh, I dont know... (4.00 / 3)
These kind of guns, replying to these kind of diaries, tends to provoke mouths opening and closing but no sound coming out... ;-)
[ Parent ]
wow, Edger! (4.00 / 2)
Astute and illustrative catch! Not to mention your rockingish involvement in such! And Nada Lemming's!

So stark.

Wow.

"We are in the Age of Shiva, an age of death and rebirth. If we only focus on what is past we feel loss. If we focus on new beginnings we feel anticipation, like looking forward to a new day without knowing quite what the weather is going to be like."

[ Parent ]
Aw shucks (4.00 / 1)
But as edger noted, no one even replied.  BTW, I expected a massive HR for that post.  


i love the smell of bipartisanship in the morning...
smells like...fucktory. -bubanomics
[ Parent ]
the sheep were stampeding (0.00 / 0)
in another direction at the time, I suppose.


"We are in the Age of Shiva, an age of death and rebirth. If we only focus on what is past we feel loss. If we focus on new beginnings we feel anticipation, like looking forward to a new day without knowing quite what the weather is going to be like."
[ Parent ]
I've got it!! (4.00 / 12)
Here's a thought, if ya get flamed over at Big Orange just past this

I don't want to talk to you no more, you empty headed animal food trough wiper. I fart in your general direction. Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries.

then leave

Monty Python and the Holy Grail.
1975

"Whatever depends on conditions is empty of intrinsic reality"
What excellent instruction could be more amazing than this discovery? Jey Tsong Khapa - Essence of True Eloquence Translated by Thurman, R.    

Please save us from the awful 'bots! (4.00 / 7)
Right this way, Oh Righteous Buhdhy, thy Scourge of Teh Stoopid and and Magic Firepuff are cleaned and await your strong hand! :-)

To the horses! (4.00 / 9)


Reality is the result of war between two rival groups of programmers,

so....Roar Louder!!!

[ Parent ]
Evil robots? (4.00 / 8)
A job for Metastopheles The Smiter.  cue the music.



Visit The Dream Antilles, a Lit Blog.

Nah (4.00 / 11)
That sounds too divisive.  I'm not sure how to reach them, I'm not even sure if it's anything more than a vocal minority on that site, but it's better for DD to be a free speech haven for those left of left of left of center than to be a battlezone for the Obamabots vs. haters fight.

People have taken the gloves off on them before - Colorado is the Shiznit, for example.  Then she just got frusturated and left.  You're not going to reach them by "bashing" them.

Vote for yourself at www.ni4d.org!

Damn good point. (4.00 / 7)


I don't like Congress.
[ Parent ]
From what I can tell it is about thirty (4.00 / 9)
daily, ten to fifteen leaders, maybe sixty strong on a good day. I have been acutely aware at the ability they have to derail good and quality action diaries, or diaries where good discussions could actually take place. It probably isn't healthy for me to focus on them, but I think it is good to be aware of your surroundings.  
[ Parent ]