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Dharmakarma

by: stormchaser

Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 12:11:55 PDT        
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What has made Docudharma special has been the mandate to be excellent to one another.  When this blog first began, the users contributed some terrific writing and friendships were formed.  It has, for many, been a place of refuge with the opportunity to present ideas in a welcoming and genteel atmosphere that was, for the most part, unique on the Internet.  

More below...
stormchaser :: Dharmakarma
The core users have not changed and there is much to love about Docudharma. There has also been an influx of new users and with a small portion has come baggage from other blogs.  Like a hailstorm on a petal, it has upset what I've referred to in the past as dharmakarma.  

I'm asking, as a long time contributor who cares very much about this site, that those who came here with baggage respect this site and leave that baggage at the door.

Several of the new users have weighed in that I/P should be discussed.  Buhdy addressed that directly in a recent diary and determined that inflammatory I/P should not.  If you have questions about that, it is up to buhdy to decide and you should take it up with him, rather than challenging users who support his rules.  It is up to the blog owner to set them.  

I do support his mandate of excellence and no inflammatory I/P essays.  I believe that mandate is essential to the dharmakarma essence of Docudharma.  Does it mean that all subjects are banned? Of course not. But if an essay has been determined by buhdy to be inflammatory, then supporting it by filling the threads on the topic is a way to erode the mandate. If the topic itself can be presented in a non-inflammatory way, a better approach is to write a non-inflammatory essay and take the discussion where the temperature is not so hot.    

I like to think everyone who comes here respects (and even welcomes) the rules that guide this blog. Those rules are: be excellent to one another and no inflammatory I/P. For those who are not following either or both, please do. If your first instinct is to not answer a comment politely, then please step back before you post and review it for the excellence standard.  That standard is to treat people with respect and to not write or support (by discussing the topic in the threads) inflammatory I/P essays.

Saol fada chugat (it means "long life to you")
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Dharmakarma | 52 comments
Saol fada chugat (3.73 / 15)
I would have put this on the front page, but thought it would be better to let buhdy decide meta there.

I hope users take this to heart.

Ta.

Dornoch firth stowps hae lang lugs...

Oh yeah? (4.00 / 11)
Well Saol fada chugat yourself! ;-)

Good to see you here the past few days, SC. It's been awhile, but I guess you've been busy, here, there, and everywhere?

[ Parent ]
Pretty much everywhere (3.67 / 12)
lots of traveling.  The effort to get as much data collected prior to Copenhagen (UN Climate Change Conference to determine Kyoto II).  

Made it to Antarctica at one point.  A diplomatic rather than scientific expedition.  We took some officials from the EU to hear the ice scream (it does that as it's breaking).

Nice to see you, too, Edgar.  I've missed your humor.  

*/:-D

Dornoch firth stowps hae lang lugs...

[ Parent ]
I've been busy building (4.00 / 9)
another new site the past few months, but we need someone to post or crosspost on climat and environment along with everything else - (not so subtle hint) ;-)

Drop in and poke around a bit if you like, SC. It's called Antemedius.

[ Parent ]
I'll check it out (4.00 / 7)
Ta.

Dornoch firth stowps hae lang lugs...
[ Parent ]
All the free (4.00 / 6)
virtual scotch you can handle, too... ;-)
[ Parent ]
Aye, now (4.00 / 6)
you're talking.

*/:-D

Dornoch firth stowps hae lang lugs...

[ Parent ]
As Clinton said, it depends on what the definition of (4.00 / 4)
imflammatory is.  
Take it up with buhdy (4.00 / 3)
this diary is not an invitation for more of the (new) same but rather the (old) same that makes this place special.  If that doesn't work for you, take it up with the blog owner.

Dornoch firth stowps hae lang lugs...
[ Parent ]
What are you coming at me for, that wasn't a reasonable comment? (4.00 / 3)
There has to be a way to discusss I/P issues, they're too important.  
[ Parent ]
We tossed around a lot of ideas (4.00 / 7)
when first discussing the development of this blog, and none were terribly satisfactory.  One of the most interesting was having a separate section of the blog for highly controversial topics (a sort of 'thunderdome' where people could duke it out, but leave everyone else at peace), but ultimately that kind of issue segregation wouldn't survive the personalities, who'd drag it back into the rest of discussion (which inevitably happens, as any blog that does have I/P discussion will show).  

Add to that the chunk of users banned at other blogs because of I/P, who were coming here to air past grievances, and it's certainly understandable why buhdy had to figure out a way to set a tone for the new blog quickly.

So the current ban evolved somewhat organically, and while I agree with you that it's an issue too important to ignore, I have yet to see a good model for it.  I've seen good individual writers, but when organizing a blog you have to develop a framework that can allow for anyone to join in, etc.  

I'd add a personal challenge to anyone writing on I/P (although this could extend to any topic, really): before hitting post, ask yourself "what does this essay accomplish?"  This might be unpopular for me to say so, but I think "Spreading the word" is likely the weakest of answers, given that the readership here is much smaller than the sources we tend to crib from.  I suppose every eye counts, but is that really all?

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

[ Parent ]
Well, noticed I stayed out of the diary that evidently triggered this, (4.00 / 5)
because I've learned my lessons, but two things strike me as someone totally consistent with all governments, why is it highly controversial to talk about the issues between Israel and the Palistinians, and as far as "spreading the word", why is this issue any different from any others in that regard?
I notice 9/11 is given much leighway here, as well as other controversial topics.  That's why I said what is the definition of inflammatory and how is that determined?  Based on whose ideals? I do understand anti-semitism and of course that is inflammatory.  
[ Parent ]
asdf: (4.00 / 7)
On the first point, I think it's an issue of practice rather than standard: I/P tends to cause a lot more fights than other topics.  When this blog was first created, there was already a lingering shadow of I/P bannings elsewhere, with a heavy tangle of enemies and lines-drawn.  Sure enough, some of that baggage began migrating here the second the blog's virtual doors opened.

On the second point, I agree completely - and though this is just a personal thing, I've stopped writing diaries related to current events unless they have concrete action items on them.  That doesn't preclude personal or meta diaries, but unless I feel I'm really spreading some information that nobody knows about, I don't see the point in adding more noise to an already cacophonous media landscape.    

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

[ Parent ]
What is inflammatory? (4.00 / 10)
Well, pretty much persistent ignorance.

You don't have to treat any other poster in any particular way so you can't use civility as a club.

On the other hand confrontational tactics are generally unproductive and unpersuasive so what's the point?

I personally am reluctant to get involved, preferring that these petty disputes perish under the inertia of their own ennui.

On the other hand I have a keen eye for bad actors and no hesitation at all in administering time outs.

"I like irony except I find that if you just toss your clothes in the dryer for a few minutes you hardly ever have to use it."- ek hornbeck

[ Parent ]
That's not quite accurate (4.00 / 4)
I noticed your recs of abusive comments, just as you did down below here, so you didn't stay out of it.  It's not accurate for you to say that you did.  You show support for non-excellent comments, you're weighing in.  Ek pointed out that there are long memories here.  If that's how you want to be remembered - emboldening other's ad homs - that's up to you.  But it will be the impression you leave, that you support unacceptable behaviour, no matter how much you insist otherwise.  

Dornoch firth stowps hae lang lugs...
[ Parent ]
uhm (4.00 / 7)
I noticed your recs of abusive comments,....

this is not necessarily indicative of agreement.
i rec'd every comment i've read in this essay. not because i agree but because i've read them...letting the writer know 'hey, i saw your thoughts'.... to me it's just good manners, much like attending a party and nodding to people as you walk past.
and because, well... discussion is Good even when there is disagreement and usually i can see the point each poster is trying to make.
if i DISagree profoundly i will not rec.
it seems to me that in an interactive community NOT having interaction is as much or more a signal of disagreement than anything else.
think about that a minute. if every essay you posted & every comment you made was met with silence...... how would you feel?

just pointing out all recs do NOT mean agreement....



come firefly-dreaming with me....

[ Parent ]
This rec does mean I agree. (4.00 / 6)


"By the pricking of my thumb, something wicked this way comes.", Wm. Shakespeare, "Macbeth"
[ Parent ]
mmgrmphahaha! (4.00 / 5)
touche'
♥~

come firefly-dreaming with me....
[ Parent ]
I usually try to stay out of meta (4.00 / 6)
and, definitely out of I/P but I couldn't resist. I usually rec comments I have read but don't necessarily feel the need to comment. I don't rec everything I've read or, for that matter, rec ones where I left a comment. However, if I disagree strongly, enough to rate less than a pony, I will give my reason for the objection/disagreement. If I've uprated a comment that someone else objected to, I will state my case why. Each of us has our own set of "rules", which is what makes all unique.

"By the pricking of my thumb, something wicked this way comes.", Wm. Shakespeare, "Macbeth"
[ Parent ]
Me three (4.00 / 1)
I kind of use the Ria rules too.
[ Parent ]
See this (4.00 / 3)
I explained what was in the comment he rec'd that went too far.

Dornoch firth stowps hae lang lugs...
[ Parent ]
My epithat. "He rec'd when he shouldn't have, other than that he was (4.00 / 3)
a pretty good guy".  OK, it could have been worse.  
[ Parent ]
We'll see on that (4.00 / 2)
The comment I linked to should not have been recommended.  It was written by someone who had come to this essay to initiate a flame war through personal insult.

Where are you from, Underdog?  Proud of your heritage?  Try this: You're a fake. You're not from where you say you are.  I've even Googled a painful (historically speaking) maxim of your people (that I don't understand myself) and have put it in my sig line to taunt you. Even though you've been here for years and people know you, I'm calling you out with a pack of like-minded bastards that I run with and intend on insulting you across essays until you leave this blog.

That's what you recommended. It may not matter to you. But if you support such personal insults, then you're here for the same purpose as these other users, to bring this blog down to their level, no matter what you say.  

Dornoch firth stowps hae lang lugs...

[ Parent ]
Time to move on brother. We probably have alot more in common (4.00 / 1)
than it may appear right now.  So we'll live and learn.  Peace.  
[ Parent ]
As long (4.00 / 2)
as that rec stays there, my disgust about it stays.  You can move on if you want.  I'll remember it.

Dornoch firth stowps hae lang lugs...
[ Parent ]
I guess asking about it is pretty much useless as well. (4.00 / 2)

The point is to (4.00 / 4)
ask buhdy since he makes the rules and not become abusive (I'm not saying you have - I'm speaking rhetorically) toward other users because one doesn't agree with the rule.  

Dornoch firth stowps hae lang lugs...
[ Parent ]
Is this addressed to me? (4.00 / 6)
Not at all, how else will you know?

Frankly nothing that has happened so far is out of bounds for this blog, nor is it likely to become so.

It's ok to disagree.  It's ok to give people bad ratings.  It's ok to publish inflammatory things.

If that is your only reason to be here however, you're not likely to find this a very receptive venue because there is a low tolerance and long memories.

We're just not that kind of audience.

"I like irony except I find that if you just toss your clothes in the dryer for a few minutes you hardly ever have to use it."- ek hornbeck

[ Parent ]
My reason? Oh boy! Peace out then. (4.00 / 2)

[ Parent ]
not that I know but (4.00 / 9)
I think ek meant the generic "you", not YOU Underdog.

No justice, no peace.
[ Parent ]
A lot more ... (4.00 / 6)
... freedom here, probably because we're smaller.

So you don't really have to care what ek says or what I say or even what buhdy says.

It's an experiment ...

.... in terror!

(ok, just kidding about the terror part)

[ Parent ]
My bad ek, just ignore that. I agree with ya. (4.00 / 6)

[ Parent ]
Underdog, don't go away. (4.00 / 9)
You strayed (if that's the right term) into a big quarrel.

I agree with ek.  There's a lot of persistent ignorance.

Also, a lot of holding back.  And licking up.

You need to be resilient and come back another day.

You are a point of light here.

second ... (4.00 / 7)
please do stay, Underdog.

No justice, no peace.
[ Parent ]
Thanks Lady, appreciate it. I am and sorry for the bs. (4.00 / 5)
I'm ready for some real fireworks now!  
[ Parent ]
things (4.00 / 4)
will level off I think, after Summer.

dont sweat it.

Photobucket

No justice, no peace.

[ Parent ]
Thanks Viet71, my bad, I shouldn't have said that. (4.00 / 6)
ek is right of course and I know better!  
[ Parent ]
Third (4.00 / 5)
Stick around, Al...
[ Parent ]
That is why I came here (4.00 / 10)
from another blog. No baggage, I left that over there.

I/P diaries are never civil, no matter how hard one tries. There is just too much emotion attached to the very subject, no matter what side one is on. One of the reasons I left the other blog, I do go back once in a while, was the inability of some people to discuss anything without personal insults.

I like it here! It is like I want my days to be, informative, educational and most of all at peace with my fellow traveler. I do curse like a sailor sometimes, I hope this is not taken personal or offensive to y'alls fragile being.  

Facts are usually messy. (4.00 / 5)
It is so much easier to say, oh well, stupid me, what do I know?
[ Parent ]
"I hope you take this to heart" (2.50 / 2)
Stormchaser, you have clearly not met the "excellence" standard in many posts here.

You've been pompous, irrational, and rude-certainly not polite to anyone.  

Again, I question who exactly you speak for with both this meta and the rudeness-if you really speak for the site, then I will leave regardless of the IP issue-because you're not rational enough to run a good site.

Frankly, if you're not speaking for the site, I don't care about your UID or how long your tenure is here--you're just another poster.  

If you want to discuss issues.

Discuss them.  

If people get mad: they do.

If you don't want to discuss 'contentious issues' : don't  blog.  

If Bhuddy tells us we can't talk about IP on his site, then he does, and he can ban people, or people slowly leave, or we all just talk about stuff we all agree on, like the weather in Alaska, how much we all hate Rush Limbaugh, or how we all really really wish we were as

substantial

as the fake Scot.

Druim nan deur

Hmm... (4.00 / 9)
Since I do speak for the site I have to be careful what I say and I think we've been pretty consistent on this-

It's ok to disagree.

And, to quote you, "If people get mad: they do."

Now you can duke it out if you want to and the community will express their view in the form of comments and ratings.

If you're uncomfortable with their judgement you can choose to post elsewhere.  What we encourage is courageous blogging and we do not seek to stifle opinions however unpopular unless they are disruptive and personal.

You don't like me and my position.  That's ok until it becomes repetitious and distracting.  Then we have to consider how it affects the blog as a whole.

And so do you.

I/P is not allowed for a reason and this discussion just reinforces that decision.

"I like irony except I find that if you just toss your clothes in the dryer for a few minutes you hardly ever have to use it."- ek hornbeck

[ Parent ]
and that (4.00 / 5)
hide he gave my tip jar reinforces, for me, at least, this weird thing I see in people addicted to I/P wars - the need to carry their vendettas from one essay and blog to another.         Thank you for weighing in.  Said it better than I would have (or had).


Dornoch firth stowps hae lang lugs...
[ Parent ]
I HR'ed you for (0.00 / 0)
a pattern of rudeness. I will likely not do it again, because there's nothing I hate more than an endless discussion about why someone rated someone for something.
[ Parent ]
I hope you won't do it again. (4.00 / 6)
I would say hide rating someone's tip jar is probably one of the rudest things anyone could do here or on any site, and says far more about the rater than about the ratee.

There is no content in his tip jar that deserves being hidden, and if you're not hr'ing on content then I think it is simple vindictiveness and meanness.

[ Parent ]
i agree! (4.00 / 6)
if you're not hr'ing on content then I think it is simple vindictiveness and meanness.


come firefly-dreaming with me....
[ Parent ]
Well, (4.00 / 2)

If you were running a blog on model railroading, then clearly such topics would be way out of bounds.

But this morning two things have occurred which very well point out how you can't really separate these things out on a political blog:

1. Meteor Blades has posted a diary about Bolton & bombing Iran, which includes much about Israel and Gaza,  and it was quickly front paged right here.

From his diary:

Accordingly, with no other timely option, the already compelling logic for an Israeli strike is nearly inexorable. Israel is undoubtedly ratcheting forward its decision-making process. President Obama is almost certainly not. ...

By your rules, no one should be able to comment on a diary that admins here have front paged-nor should it even have been posted.

2. Joe Biden made some statements that the New York Times stated may have  greenlighted an Israeli attack on Iran by Israel.  

To me, that can be interpreted as I/P I suppose, but if one is not allowed to post comments about the US Vice Presidents statement, then I can't really imagine how can have a political blog.

Now, in fairness, you've left yourself some 'wiggle room' with the 'inflammatory'  part of the 'inflammatory I/P' rule, but not much--maybe you can find something in that which can be the light in the tunnel out from the tight spot you've put yourselves in.  

At any rate, I have nothing more to say on this issue (and I have not even posted anything regarding IP here, yet, other than to weigh in on the meta of this) --to say anything more would just get people's backs up further and accomplish nothing.  

[ Parent ]
I don't know (4.00 / 2)
what it is about Internet bullies who love to hate that shows a common pattern:

pack behaviour: check
us and them mentality: check
obsessive need to carry shit from blog to blog: check
ruining whatever blog you scared little bully boys infest: check

Now, if someone like me choses to leave because of you and your clan -- and I do see myself as more substantive for the simple reason that I've made the time and the effort to become a contributing member of this blog -- that may seem like a victory to you.  Pyrrhic though, as your pattern will be in mind when your clan descends on the next user you obsess upon.

I think you should take the advice of my sig line, which, if you weren't the fake Scot, you'd be able to translate.

p.s. The MacLennan's have interesting history. They were particularly disdainful of the Irish who sided with Hitler in WWII. I'm guessing you didn't know that when you chose them for your sig.

Dornoch firth stowps hae lang lugs...

[ Parent ]
Having missed the initial (4.00 / 10)
essay that sparked this meta ember from the fire it seems to me that the definition of I/P is at the heart of the matter. Of course you cannot blog and not acknowledge the Israel and Palestine and the US are indeed huge parts of the equation of the world's cauldron, the Mideast. The place we are literally inflaming and burning.

I/P flamers are a separate breed. They are easily recognizable when you stumble into them. They are not really about discussing the issues or even persuasion. They are long held grudges and warfare between longtime proponents that are an endless circle, that like a drain sucks all of the participants, regardless of intent, down a hole. They have a tribal and religious quality that turns the smartest people into hateful hurlers of poo. The worst aspect of them is that they make the situation and solutions or even the understanding impossible as they are really about the heat of defending the undefendable.

Sorry to go on here but I think what the administration is saying is not that the topic is verboten but that the very construct of IP as a form of gunfight is not welcome as it just trashes the place and fries all the people who are in the vicinity and the flames spill onto the whole place. The last time I participated I said some awful stuff to a blogger I admire and was full of self loathing for days.. So I think it's not the subject that is forbidden but the format. Easy to avoid on dkos as it's so huge, here they stand in stark relief.          

   

Well said! (4.00 / 8)
That's exactly the problem.  You put it very well.  

Dornoch firth stowps hae lang lugs...
[ Parent ]
If in fact that's what they're after (4.00 / 1)
then, I agree with you:

but I think what the administration is saying is not that the topic is verboten but that the very construct of IP as a form of gunfight

[ Parent ]
OK, I'm pissed. The next person who tells me who I should and (0.00 / 0)
shouldn't rec can stuff it.  Hear me, stuff it!

http://www.dailykos.com/story/...

Dharmakarma | 52 comments
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